24: A Therapist's Advice To Deeper Connection In Your Marriage | Melissa Tablada

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Hey, I'm your host, Mari Wagner,

and you're listening to the ever be

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podcast where faith meets lifestyle.

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I'm so excited you're here, whether you're

a new listener or a longtime follower,

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I know there's something here for you.

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Pull up a chair and listen in for

insightful real life conversations

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and actionable steps on how to claim

the full life God created you for.

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If you're a woman desiring to live

a Christ centered life in today's

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modern world, then this is for you.

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Welcome to Ever Be.

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Mari Wagner: Hey friends, happy Wednesday.

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Welcome to ever be today.

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We have a special friend,

my dear friend, Melissa.

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She is actually a really close friend

of mine and was my NFP practitioner when

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Trey and I were engaged back in the day.

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Um, so she has so much insight

into marriages and families.

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She's also a licensed, uh,

marriage and family therapist, and

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she's just able to give a really

beautiful, honest, and good advice.

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Just expertise perspective

from, um, or for these topics of

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marriage and family life fertility.

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Uh, she has so many

beautiful things to share.

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So Melissa, welcome to every beat.

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Can you just give us all a little

introduction about yourself?

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Melissa Tablada: Yes.

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Thank you for having me.

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I'm so excited to be here.

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And yeah, I love thinking about our

friendship over the years since.

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2018 I think and just all

the different seasons that

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we've walked through together.

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But yes, hi ever be community.

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I'm Melissa.

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Um, my husband and I have

been married for six years.

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We have two kids.

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Our son Orly is three and our

daughter Winslet is a year and a half.

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Um, before having the kids, we walked

through our own season of infertility

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and thank God with the support of

Creighton and NAPRA technology, we

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were able to work through that and

find healing and have our children.

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Um, and so I've been always super

passionate about fertility care.

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So I am a fertility care practitioner

with Creighton, which I love so

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much and could talk endlessly about.

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Um, but before that, my primary

education training and professional

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focus, um, is that I'm a licensed

marriage and family therapist.

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So actually I work.

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I work primarily with individuals.

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It's a very common, like, misunderstanding

with my license title, but with couples

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as well, but, um, mostly I'm working

with individuals and couples from a

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Catholic worldview, Catholic lens of

the human person and what it means to

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be human and find healing and wholeness.

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and also looking within the context

of the family system, which is.

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what it means to be a

marriage and family therapist.

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I'm looking at an individual or a couple

from the systemic point of view of the

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family that they're part of, what they

learned in their family of origin,

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growing up, what their experience is

now and how we can just, yeah, um, live

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out the calling that God has for us

each individually and in our marriages.

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And so right now I'm in a season of

raising babies and running businesses

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Mari Wagner: That's beautiful.

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I love just the way that you just

described that whole system because

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there's so many different things that go

into How we approach our marriage how you

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know our relationship thrives or hurts

um, depending on our own experiences and

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what we're bringing into marriage, so

it's much more complicated than Um than

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we think um, so today we are going to

be talking about marriage Um advice for

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marriage couple married couples, but also

just diving a little bit deeper into the

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idea of building a strong Um Beautiful,

healthy connection with your spouse.

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And I think that this can be something

that people desire more of in like

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a, like a wide range of however

many years you've been married.

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It just because you've been married one

or two years doesn't mean that like you

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never need improvement in your connection.

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It could be something that newlyweds

are looking for as well as people that

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have been married for a long time.

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So I'm excited to dive into kind of like

your tips and tricks, especially from

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your perspective as a marriage therapist.

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So I guess.

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Um, first question to start off, um, as

a licensed marriage therapist, right?

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From your expertise, what do you feel

like are common difficulties that people

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struggle with or couples struggle with?

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Um, do you have any tips or

advice to remedy or avoid them?

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Melissa Tablada: Yes, this

is one of my favorite topics.

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I actually just gave a talk yesterday

also on connection and marriage.

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It's like something so close to my

heart, something that I love focusing

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on in my own marriage with the couples

that I work with, it's such a beautiful

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topic to focus on and learn in.

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So first thing I want to say is that

what I learned in school back when

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I was in grad school, and when I

began seeing clients eight years ago,

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um, on average couples will wait.

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Six years from the time that

they notice a problem until the

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time that they seek professional

support, which is way too long.

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And at that point, usually one

person is completely checked out

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and unwilling or uninterested in

doing the work that therapy takes.

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And so my first tip is don't be average.

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That's the average.

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Don't be average.

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Be proactive.

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We all have issues.

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I am a marriage therapist

with a very healthy marriage.

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And my husband and I both go to

therapy individually and together.

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We need it.

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It's good for all of us.

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We all have stuff to work on.

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We all have stuff to improve.

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I will say, um, because I am the

specific population that I work with.

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I'm primarily working with Catholic

young adult women and Catholic young

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adult couples or younger couples.

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And so something I love about this

community is that we tend to be a

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little bit more proactive about seeking.

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Healing and wholeness and

personal growth and development.

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So many of the clients that I'm working

with in therapy are in the early stages.

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They're not waiting six years.

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They're like, we're not even married yet.

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And we want to work on our relationship

where we've been married for 10 days.

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And we want to work on our

relationship, which is.

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Such a gift to themselves

and to their marriages.

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So, um, that's so good.

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It's not across the board that

people are waiting far too long.

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And even if they are like, let's say

you've been married 20 years and you're

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listening to this and you're thinking

like, oh my gosh, it's too late.

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It's never too late.

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You're never too disconnected for God

to bring, um, reunification and, and

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reconnection, but the sooner that we

can work on our issues, the better.

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Um, So specifically, I would say some of

the more common problems that people are

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coming into therapy with are regarding

communication and conflict resolution.

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Those are like the top two

things that people are telling me

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every single day communication.

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As far as that goes, there are a few

really simple communication skills that

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I teach almost all of my clients because

they're so simple and so basic, but

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unless we learned them, unless our family

of origin, taught us really healthy

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communication, then we're just modeling

and repeating whatever we learned.

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And so sometimes that's not the

most healthy forms of communication.

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I'm actually working on a resource right

now to, um, compile these like really

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simple communication skills and do that.

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Share it with everyone.

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So stay tuned for that.

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Not sure if it's exactly ready when this

is launching, but at some point, that's

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just like really simple, just a few

things, but to give people something to

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work on right now, I would say when it

comes to communication, people are often

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thinking about what they're going to say.

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And if we were to shift into actively

listening and really understanding

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our spouse, that's going to change the

entire dynamic of the communication.

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If we.

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Learn how to truly listen, listen

actively, listen to understand,

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ask good questions, seek to know

why they think what they think,

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why they feel what they feel.

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It's going to solve so many

of our communication issues.

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Um, and so a simple tool for that

is to just start asking after

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your spouse has shared something.

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me make sure I'm understanding you

correctly and then reflect back what

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you think you heard because chances

are, especially if there's a lot of

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conflict in your marriage, you probably

didn't hear what they meant to say.

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And they maybe didn't even

say what they meant to say.

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There's just so much misunderstanding

that we can clear up if we're actually

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seeking to understand what the

person is saying and really listen.

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So that's like something so simple.

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If you just start saying Let me just

check and make sure I, I get you.

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Let me make sure I heard you correctly.

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It's going to clear up so

many of our communication

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Mari Wagner: can I just say

something about that really quick?

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Personal experience using

that tip has been so amazing.

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I think I'd heard it from you.

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And then we also went to like a

marriage retreat held by the JP2

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Healing Institute in October.

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And they gave that tip too.

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And even just, they were

like, pick whatever.

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Argument or a thing that you like can't

both agree on in the last like six months

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to a year in your marriage and use it for

this and we like at the retreat used it

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and it was like We just got to a whole new

level of understanding It's not like it

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was resolved right then and there but we

got to a whole new level of understanding

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just in the first time Of using that

especially when you both I think it's

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so important when you're in conflict

resolution Like in, in conflict resolution

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mode, when you're like in the middle of

it to kind of just be like open and candid

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and like, okay, let's try doing this.

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You know, like you can just say

like, let's try this strategy.

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Cause I want to be able to understand

you and just like outline it

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right there in the conversation.

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And so even just both of us.

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Sitting down knowing like we're gonna try

this and we're gonna try once again to

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like face this issue and see where we land

It was like this like armor Was able to

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like come down a little bit because you

both know that you're coming from a place

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of like seeking to understand each Other

and you both might know like I might not

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get through to him or he might not fully

understand what I'm saying But I know he's

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at least in a place where he's like Trying

to and like actively listening and he's

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going to repeat back and I have a space

to actually clarify Instead of everybody

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trying to talk over each other trying

to like be like, that's not what I said.

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That's not what I said So

it's been really helpful

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Melissa Tablada: Yeah, I make, uh,

there's so many things that I could say.

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We could talk about this all night.

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One thing I'll say is if, if people

haven't used this before, practice it

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in a moment that's not tense first,

because it's, it's, really hard to

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practice a skill for the first time.

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When you're angry, um, you

just automatically go back

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to whatever you're used to.

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So I remember when my husband and I

started using this in our early marriage.

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Just like such a most ridiculous example.

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I asked him to grab me the peanut

butter and he was like, let me

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make sure I hear you correctly.

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You want me to grab you the peanut butter?

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And like, because we

intentionally went through like.

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Okay.

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This is a skill that we

want to get really good at.

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And in order to get really good

at it, we need to practice it in

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neutral, calm, like happy moments.

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And so I just remember him

practicing it in that moment and

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being me being like, you're nuts.

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But it was so helpful because then

we've been able to use it so often in a

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Mari Wagner: I love it.

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Melissa Tablada: higher conflict.

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And, um, yeah, it's really

that if you haven't already.

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And then just one more thing

about conflict resolution,

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because you mentioned too.

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that is something coming

up so often with couples.

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I feel that yes, communication has such.

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Um, a big part in that, but also I

think that conflict resolution has

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a lot more to do with the couple's

connection, which is our hope topic today.

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But if we are feeling disconnected

across the board or just day to day,

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it's going to be so much more difficult

to resolve conflict when it comes up,

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when it's like a bigger issue that needs

management versus if we are putting

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energy into connection and intimacy and

we have a healthy, holy relationship.

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Positive foundation to stand

on when a conflict arises.

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We're just going to naturally be a lot,

um, have a lot more skills and ability

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to work through that conflict if we

were already connected to start with.

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So I would start with building

the connection so that conflict

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Mari Wagner: Yeah, that's great advice.

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I love all that and totally agree.

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Um, moving on to a slightly different

topic, but still on the same vein of

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connection, specifically how to deepen it.

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Um, any practical tips you have

to share in general are welcome.

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But specifically, I want you to touch on.

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Conversations.

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I feel like those are something

that people and ourselves included

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have had trouble with in the past.

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Um, I know, especially for us, this

is kind of a personal situation, but

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like we spend so much time together

because we work together, we live

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together, we have the same friends, like.

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Pretty much the only thing we

don't do together is work out

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because we go to different gyms.

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And so a lot of the times we'll

sit down at a date night and

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be like, so how was your day?

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It's like, well, I was with you.

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Like, I already know what you did today.

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And even for couples who don't

work remotely from home together, I

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know a lot of times I've heard from

friends, like we go to date nights

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and it's like, what did you do?

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And it's like, I just kind

of hear about work or.

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You kind of just talk about the kids and

you kind of lose a little bit of that.

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Like, how are you individually?

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Or like, what else can we talk about

besides just like the day to day?

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Do you have any advice?

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Let's just start there

with the conversation.

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Do you have any advice on what to

talk about or like how to spark

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interesting and good connecting

conversations with your spouse?

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Melissa Tablada: Yes, I what you

named it like those questions.

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How are you?

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How was your day?

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They're just awful questions pretty

much most of the time that lead nowhere

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Because we're conditioned to know that

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Mari Wagner: Yeah.

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Melissa Tablada: questions don't mean

anything Like those questions are

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a greeting you pass somebody in an

elevator and they say how are you?

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How was your day?

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Like it doesn't mean anything

It doesn't mean you actually

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want to know about my day.

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And so we're just conditioned that

those questions don't mean anything.

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Um, and they don't

warrant a real response.

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If I asked my husband, how was your day?

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He will, it will give us no context,

no information, no connection.

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He will almost a hundred percent

of the time be like, Uh, you know,

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the same stressful, like just a

very generic, very like, okay.

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I don't want to talk about work kind

of response, there's so many better

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questions that we can be asking.

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is something huge.

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People are asking all the time.

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I have a free download with

25 conversation starters.

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That I will give you the link

so you can share it with people.

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Um, but basically things like,

how did you see God today?

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What's one thing you learned today?

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Because even if you were spending the

entire day with your spouse, you don't

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know the answer to those questions.

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So, you know, practically what

he did, you know, he was working,

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you know, he was at the gym, but

you don't know how he saw God.

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You don't know how he felt loved.

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You don't know one thing he

wished he did differently.

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So things like that we can just open

up the floor for a more dynamic,

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more meaningful conversation if we

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Mari Wagner: I love that.

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Those are, it's really just

about digging a little bit deeper

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and it takes work on both ends.

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I think if we want a more fruitful answer

from our husband or our wife, like we

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also need to put a little bit of effort

into like asking a more fruitful question.

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So I love those examples.

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And I didn't know about your freebie.

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I'm definitely going to download

that freebie because I know that

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you have a real and we saved it and

we've gone back to it on date nights.

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You have a real that's like,

Top 10 conversation starters

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or something like that.

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And I'll be like, Oh,

Melissa has this reel.

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Let's go back.

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So I'm sure I'm excited to

download the full, the full guide.

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Um, okay.

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So let's just circle back

to my first question.

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Cause I asked it in like three parts.

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Basically first question I asked was.

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Within this whole bigger question was

just like in general, now that we talked

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about, like, what do you feel like

are the biggest struggles people have

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that are inhibiting that connection?

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Like what are practical ways

to actually increase and deepen

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connection with your spouse?

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Melissa Tablada: Okay, so I want to give

three practical tools that I find really

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helpful And I find are really helpful

with my clients as well So number one if

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anyone is a Creighton user or familiar

with Creighton You're gonna be familiar

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with spice and I find some people think

spice is like a little cheesy or kind of

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roll their eyes at it But I think it's

Such a practical and such a useful tool.

309

: 00:15:42

I use it in my own marriage.

310

: 00:15:43

I share it with my client,

my therapy clients that have

311

: 00:15:46

nothing to do with Creighton.

312

: 00:15:47

So SPICE is an acronym for intimacy.

313

: 00:15:50

Looking at a whole person

because intimacy is not just.

314

: 00:15:54

Physical.

315

: 00:15:55

It's not just sexual intimacy

is our whole selves and in

316

: 00:15:58

marriage we need to be focusing on

intimacy in many different ways.

317

: 00:16:02

So SPICE stands for spiritual,

physical, intellectual,

318

: 00:16:06

communicative, and emotional.

319

: 00:16:08

And it's so practical.

320

: 00:16:09

There's so many times my husband and I

have felt disconnected that we've been

321

: 00:16:12

like, okay, let's sit down, let's assess.

322

: 00:16:14

Which of these areas are we doing well at?

323

: 00:16:17

Are we connected in?

324

: 00:16:18

And which of these areas

are we doing poorly at?

325

: 00:16:20

Are we disconnected in?

326

: 00:16:21

And then we can talk about, okay, so

let's say if we're feeling spiritually

327

: 00:16:25

disconnected, we haven't really been

connecting in a spiritual way lately.

328

: 00:16:28

What does that mean?

329

: 00:16:29

How do I appreciate

connecting spiritually?

330

: 00:16:31

And how does he appreciate

connecting spiritually?

331

: 00:16:34

Are we going to mass together?

332

: 00:16:35

Can we go to mass more together?

333

: 00:16:37

Is that possible?

334

: 00:16:37

Are we praying together daily?

335

: 00:16:39

How do we each appreciate

praying together daily?

336

: 00:16:41

Because for my husband

and I, that's different.

337

: 00:16:43

And I.

338

: 00:16:44

Connect most through God, most

with God through the rosary.

339

: 00:16:48

And he connects most with God through the

divine office and the office of reading.

340

: 00:16:51

So that having that conversation

and like, okay, so maybe some days

341

: 00:16:55

we can pray the rosary together.

342

: 00:16:56

Maybe some days we can do the divine

office and then we're both going to

343

: 00:16:59

be growing closer to God while growing

closer to each other, even as simple as

344

: 00:17:04

asking your spouse, how can I pray for you

today is incredibly connecting because.

345

: 00:17:09

You're getting to know the inner

workings of their heart in a deeper

346

: 00:17:13

way and understanding what's on their

mind, what's on their heart, what

347

: 00:17:16

are they praying for, and it's going

to help you know them even more.

348

: 00:17:20

When we think about physical, I could

talk so much about each of these, but

349

: 00:17:23

physical is so much more than sex.

350

: 00:17:25

Although of course for married

couples, that's incredibly important.

351

: 00:17:29

Um, it that's so much more dynamic,

we need to be, you know, kissing.

352

: 00:17:34

Are you kissing for more

than point three seconds.

353

: 00:17:38

Um, and just in passing really quickly.

354

: 00:17:40

Are you actually spending time

giving each other a long hug?

355

: 00:17:43

Should never be underestimated.

356

: 00:17:44

That's so connecting for couples.

357

: 00:17:46

There's so much research on a hug

that's like long and significant or

358

: 00:17:50

a kiss that's long and significant.

359

: 00:17:52

Um, more than just a couple of

seconds can be so connecting.

360

: 00:17:57

Sometimes couples are just like

passing shifts in the night,

361

: 00:18:00

not even talking to each other.

362

: 00:18:02

not spending time with each other.

363

: 00:18:03

Just like, there's so much going on.

364

: 00:18:05

There's kids and there's work and

there's taking care of the home.

365

: 00:18:08

And there's so much going on.

366

: 00:18:09

So just setting aside time to spend time

together, have a meaningful conversation,

367

: 00:18:14

share what goals are you working on?

368

: 00:18:16

What are you dreaming of where,

you know, just life conversations.

369

: 00:18:21

Yeah.

370

: 00:18:21

Is so helpful.

371

: 00:18:22

So spice is one tool really useful,

really practical, really tangible.

372

: 00:18:27

The second one, everyone, I don't

think there's anyone at this point

373

: 00:18:30

in the world that's not familiar

yet with the love languages, but

374

: 00:18:33

it's again, one of those like really

practical tools that can sometimes be

375

: 00:18:37

disregarded as like too simple, but

it's really the simple things that make

376

: 00:18:42

the most difference on a daily basis.

377

: 00:18:44

And if you haven't taken the

love languages quiz in a while,

378

: 00:18:47

they definitely change over time.

379

: 00:18:49

So I would revisit it if

it's been a few years.

380

: 00:18:51

Quality time, acts of service,

words of affirmation, physical

381

: 00:18:55

touch, receiving gifts.

382

: 00:18:57

Um, at this point in our marriage,

I am for sure physical touch and

383

: 00:19:01

AJ, my husband is for sure acts of

service and we're complete opposite.

384

: 00:19:06

Most of the time when we were

dating, it was different.

385

: 00:19:08

He was words of affirmation.

386

: 00:19:10

I was, um, I think quality time.

387

: 00:19:13

And so we just always have to know

what is The love language of my spouse

388

: 00:19:18

so that I can be intentional and they

can feel connected because I'm going

389

: 00:19:22

out of my way when, if AJ will just

like just his hand on my leg, just

390

: 00:19:29

hands, just a long hugger kiss, like

I said, him playing with my hair while

391

: 00:19:33

we're, he's watching a football game.

392

: 00:19:34

Like the simplest thing makes

me feel so connected to him and

393

: 00:19:39

Mari Wagner: I feel like

my head is just bobbing.

394

: 00:19:41

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

395

: 00:19:42

To everything you're saying.

396

: 00:19:43

Cause I'm like, Yes, these are so freaking

good and I love revisiting the spice

397

: 00:19:48

because I feel like that's like a Nuance

that like people haven't heard but also

398

: 00:19:52

always love driving back the five love

languages because I agree I think people

399

: 00:19:55

have heard a lot about it and just kind

of dismiss it as like, oh, that's just

400

: 00:19:58

like Level one basics and it's like

actually it's really hard to master in our

401

: 00:20:04

experience We are the same as you guys.

402

: 00:20:06

I'm physical touch trey's acts of service

And our natural disposition I feel like

403

: 00:20:11

is to just initiate love in the way that

we know best so like if i'm like feeling

404

: 00:20:16

a moment of like butterflies in my stomach

i'm like Oh my gosh, i'm gonna go hug

405

: 00:20:19

him or like i'm gonna go kiss him or like

We're on the couch and like literally

406

: 00:20:22

my foot could just be under his knee and

i'm like so content and for him he's just

407

: 00:20:27

like You Like trying to love me by like

getting up and filling up my water or like

408

: 00:20:31

doing the dishes or like making breakfast

while I get ready And it's easy to miss

409

: 00:20:36

each other sometimes if we're only loving

each other in the ways that we receive

410

: 00:20:40

love best So it's never too simple.

411

: 00:20:42

Like you said it's the simple things

that I really feel like drive at home.

412

: 00:20:45

I

413

: 00:20:45

Melissa Tablada: I know Mari,

we're in the same marriage.

414

: 00:20:47

AJ sometimes is like, I cleaned

the whole house for you.

415

: 00:20:51

And I'm like, I

416

: 00:20:53

Mari Wagner: know

417

: 00:20:54

Melissa Tablada: care

if the house is clean.

418

: 00:20:55

Like, it doesn't mean I'm like, I

419

: 00:20:58

Mari Wagner: Yes

420

: 00:20:59

Melissa Tablada: appreciate the

fact that you put in so much time.

421

: 00:21:02

And I appreciate the fact

that our home is clean.

422

: 00:21:04

Like, it's not that I don't

appreciate it, but I don't feel.

423

: 00:21:07

feel connected to you like that.

424

: 00:21:09

I don't feel loved versus if you would

just come up and like bear hug me, I

425

: 00:21:16

will feel like the most loved wife in the

426

: 00:21:19

Mari Wagner: And that's I think I

427

: 00:21:21

Melissa Tablada: time.

428

: 00:21:21

And it's like,

429

: 00:21:23

Mari Wagner: was just gonna say yes

And I feel like the good the word there

430

: 00:21:27

that I feel like is good to use In your

marriage or even for me to think about

431

: 00:21:30

is like connection versus love because

I think like love is so big And like

432

: 00:21:34

we never like how could you not feel

loved if I like, you know We never

433

: 00:21:37

like don't want to make the person feel

loved but I think that word connection.

434

: 00:21:40

It's like, okay Yeah, sure I feel like you

are loving us and loving our family and

435

: 00:21:44

loving me by doing all these like chores

for us But I feel most connected when you

436

: 00:21:50

hug, kiss, rub my back, whatever it is.

437

: 00:21:53

So that's a really good distinction.

438

: 00:21:55

Melissa Tablada: Yes.

439

: 00:21:55

And so last practical tip,

again, go back to the basics.

440

: 00:21:59

And I love what you said

about the love languages.

441

: 00:22:01

It's like, people are like, okay,

but you know, that's level one

442

: 00:22:04

and I'm on level 10 and so I have

to do these more things like.

443

: 00:22:07

Actually, most of the time we don't,

we need to go back to the basics and

444

: 00:22:10

do the simple things and do them really

well, because even me who has been

445

: 00:22:15

married again, like we have a healthy

marriage, we love each other so much.

446

: 00:22:18

We go to therapy ourselves.

447

: 00:22:19

I am a marriage therapist and still,

I am generally terrible at loving him

448

: 00:22:24

through acts of service because it's so

hard because it's not my love language

449

: 00:22:28

and it's not my natural thought.

450

: 00:22:30

And I have to put so much energy

and effort into doing that.

451

: 00:22:32

Okay.

452

: 00:22:33

So last.

453

: 00:22:33

Practical, um, tool for increasing

connection on a daily basis.

454

: 00:22:38

there are four points of connection

generally, like this will be different.

455

: 00:22:42

And especially for you, who you

and your husband work together.

456

: 00:22:45

So it'll be a little bit different,

but generally I think about four points

457

: 00:22:48

of connection throughout the day.

458

: 00:22:50

One, when we wake up one, when we like

part ways in the morning, one, when

459

: 00:22:54

we come back together at the end of a

workday or whatever was going on that day.

460

: 00:22:57

Um, and then bedtime when

we're going to sleep.

461

: 00:22:59

And if we, we can either, those four

points of connection throughout the

462

: 00:23:04

day can make or break a relationship.

463

: 00:23:07

If you are at each of those points

of connection, if we think about

464

: 00:23:10

making eye contact, greeting each

other in a warm way, like that, we

465

: 00:23:15

actually are interested in each other.

466

: 00:23:17

We actually like each other.

467

: 00:23:18

We like, look forward to

that connection moment.

468

: 00:23:21

Um, and then embracing in some

way, a hug, a kiss, a hug.

469

: 00:23:25

Just the acknowledgement of the presence

of the other person where it's so easy

470

: 00:23:30

that the alarm goes off and you grab

your phone and you go on your way and

471

: 00:23:33

you haven't acknowledged each other

or, um, somebody walks in the door.

472

: 00:23:37

And I remember like early in our

parenthood experience, I would

473

: 00:23:43

be just so tapped out by the

time that AJ got home from work.

474

: 00:23:46

I'd be literally standing in the driveway.

475

: 00:23:48

He would walk, drive into the driveway.

476

: 00:23:50

I would.

477

: 00:23:51

Essentially toss him a baby and then run

away because I needed some time to myself.

478

: 00:23:56

And at some point he was like,

I, that doesn't really make

479

: 00:23:59

me excited about coming home.

480

: 00:24:01

And I was like, you're totally right.

481

: 00:24:03

And I need to figure out how to spend

the last hour of my day before you

482

: 00:24:07

get home in a different way so that

I'm not just like sitting, waiting,

483

: 00:24:10

counting the seconds until you get here.

484

: 00:24:12

But I'm like actually looking

forward to seeing my husband, who

485

: 00:24:15

I love and miss throughout the day.

486

: 00:24:17

And it's not just about what I need,

but it's about, you know, Again,

487

: 00:24:20

making this a moment of connection.

488

: 00:24:22

And so that makes such a difference if

we can master like those four points

489

: 00:24:26

of connection, doing them well, when

we wake up, when we part ways, when

490

: 00:24:29

we come back and when we go to sleep.

491

: 00:24:30

Mari Wagner: Yeah.

492

: 00:24:31

Melissa Tablada: can make such a

493

: 00:24:31

Mari Wagner: No, I love that.

494

: 00:24:33

Okay.

495

: 00:24:34

So earlier you talked about

Creighton, you talked about NFP.

496

: 00:24:38

So we're going to move

into that a little bit.

497

: 00:24:39

Cause I think it's really

important and still related to

498

: 00:24:42

increasing connection in marriage.

499

: 00:24:44

How can NFP help create more of

a connection and even like spark

500

: 00:24:49

a connection in the bedroom?

501

: 00:24:51

Melissa Tablada: So good.

502

: 00:24:52

Love this question because I love the way

503

: 00:24:54

Mari Wagner: Yes.

504

: 00:24:55

Melissa Tablada: my worlds come together.

505

: 00:24:56

Like NFP and marriage therapy

are so connected to each other.

506

: 00:24:59

The statistics for NFP supporting

marriage is incredible.

507

: 00:25:05

Like it's so compelling.

508

: 00:25:06

Mari Wagner: Can you just explain

what is NFP in case there are

509

: 00:25:10

people who maybe have never heard

about it or it's their first time?

510

: 00:25:13

Probably would be good to just talk

about like, just quickly, what is NFP?

511

: 00:25:17

Melissa Tablada: So natural family

planning, uh, we'll use the term NFP.

512

: 00:25:20

This is what the church gives us such a

gift as a way of planning our families

513

: 00:25:27

in a way that's moral responsible.

514

: 00:25:29

So, um, we can chart our cycles.

515

: 00:25:31

This is what I teach with Creighton.

516

: 00:25:32

We can chart our cycles, understand

our fertility, and then either avoid

517

: 00:25:36

pregnancy or achieve pregnancy or just

monitor health and the health of a

518

: 00:25:40

reproductive system in a effective way.

519

: 00:25:44

So when I was in grad school, I was

in a very liberal, very non Catholic,

520

: 00:25:49

very non NFP friendly university,

um, studying to be a therapist.

521

: 00:25:54

And I did a whole project to

present and like make my case for

522

: 00:25:58

NFP to our couples counseling class

because people didn't know about it.

523

: 00:26:03

And I wanted therapists to be equipped

with the information of something

524

: 00:26:06

that's incredibly supportive.

525

: 00:26:08

for married couples.

526

: 00:26:09

So first, for couples, married couples

who use NFP, um, use family planning,

527

: 00:26:15

natural family planning in their

marriage, the divorce rate is 58

528

: 00:26:19

percent lower than couples who don't.

529

: 00:26:23

Okay, of course, this is not causal.

530

: 00:26:25

So it's not like use NFP and then, you

know, you have no chance of divorce.

531

: 00:26:28

That's not what I'm saying,

but it is significant.

532

: 00:26:32

It's compelling.

533

: 00:26:33

It's a very significant statistic

and number to pay attention to.

534

: 00:26:36

There's something about couples

who are practicing natural family

535

: 00:26:39

planning that make their marriages

so much stronger and so much more.

536

: 00:26:43

Um, long lasting life, lifetime lasting

who use NFP in their marriages also

537

: 00:26:48

report better communication, increased

intimacy, um, and many other things.

538

: 00:26:53

So the research shows that using NFP is

supportive to our marriages, how Okay.

539

: 00:26:59

This is something that

couples are learning together.

540

: 00:27:02

So going back to spice that we mentioned

earlier, the I stands for intellectual.

541

: 00:27:07

This is a form of intellectual

intimacy, couples, learning something

542

: 00:27:11

together, learning a new skill together.

543

: 00:27:14

It opens the door for daily communication

about fertility, health, family planning,

544

: 00:27:18

and communication is also another

form of intimacy, good communication,

545

: 00:27:23

having good, meaningful conversations.

546

: 00:27:26

we're using NFP, couples are supporting

each other by going to sessions together.

547

: 00:27:31

Even often, I'll have the man doing

the charting, um, which is a great

548

: 00:27:36

way for couples to work together.

549

: 00:27:37

And it'd be a couple's responsibility

as opposed to birth control pills

550

: 00:27:42

being a woman's responsibility or like

condoms being a man's responsibility.

551

: 00:27:45

But this is something a couple is

working on together and being a team.

552

: 00:27:48

Um, Um, as far as taking care of it.

553

: 00:27:50

So that makes such a big difference.

554

: 00:27:52

And then as far as you

mentioned, like the spark goes.

555

: 00:27:56

when we, my husband and I give the

marital sexuality talk for our arch

556

: 00:28:01

diocese marriage prep, um, retreat.

557

: 00:28:03

And my husband always describes

this honeymoon effect that NFP

558

: 00:28:08

gives, especially for couples who

are using NFP to avoid pregnancy.

559

: 00:28:12

That means that there's a time, which

is the fertile window in the cycle where

560

: 00:28:16

the couple would be avoiding intercourse.

561

: 00:28:18

And so during that time, we have the

opportunity to be intentional with

562

: 00:28:21

loving each other and connecting with

each other, um, in a way that maybe

563

: 00:28:25

we did more of before we were married.

564

: 00:28:27

Before sex was happening, we were

more intentional in different

565

: 00:28:31

creative ways of connecting.

566

: 00:28:34

Then it gives this opportunity to come

together again and reunite and, um, have

567

: 00:28:41

this like wedding night experience all

over again, every cycle, which is so

568

: 00:28:45

beautiful because if we use it that way,

this like anticipation and time of looking

569

: 00:28:51

forward to being together again, it can be

so beautiful for keeping that spark alive.

570

: 00:28:57

Um, and just, yeah, having

this honeymoon effect every

571

: 00:29:00

Mari Wagner: Yeah, no, I love that you

talked about all that because I think

572

: 00:29:02

there are a lot of misconceptions about

nfp out there And I know you've talked

573

: 00:29:05

a lot about them on your page as well

before but I think one of them is that

574

: 00:29:08

people think that there's Less intimacy

in a marriage when you use nfp when

575

: 00:29:13

the reality is just looks a little bit

different But from what you're talking

576

: 00:29:17

about and probably your experience

with clients You see that there's

577

: 00:29:19

actually not just greater like physical

intimacy, but greater like emotional.

578

: 00:29:24

Um intimacy as well within a couple

Would you would you say that that's true?

579

: 00:29:28

Melissa Tablada: Yes.

580

: 00:29:29

So research says that couples who are

practicing NFP have just as much sex.

581

: 00:29:34

So the like frequency wise, the

amount of sex that's happening is

582

: 00:29:37

pretty much the same across the board.

583

: 00:29:40

But like we said, the quality of the

connection, the level of intimacy,

584

: 00:29:45

the greater, um, communication,

connection, intimacy, all those

585

: 00:29:48

things are significantly increased,

significantly better among NFP users.

586

: 00:29:54

Mari Wagner: Okay.

587

: 00:29:54

So now let's talk about

couples that have children.

588

: 00:29:56

So we don't have any children yet, so

I can't really speak from experience,

589

: 00:29:59

but I have a lot of mom friends and

something I hear often is, you know,

590

: 00:30:03

I love my spouse and when, when kids

came into the picture, things changed

591

: 00:30:07

a little bit, you know, like there's

more strain on the marriage or harder

592

: 00:30:09

times to find time to connect or date

nights just don't really happen anymore.

593

: 00:30:13

So how can you speak to

these moms out there?

594

: 00:30:16

I think young moms, especially with little

kids where it's maybe like harder to

595

: 00:30:19

escape for a little bit with your husband

and find those like maybe more intense.

596

: 00:30:23

date nights.

597

: 00:30:24

Uh, what advice would you give

to them to kind of find that

598

: 00:30:27

reconnection in their marriage?

599

: 00:30:29

Melissa Tablada: Yes.

600

: 00:30:30

I want to first say if you're feeling

that way, you are absolutely not alone.

601

: 00:30:35

We experienced that so much.

602

: 00:30:38

Um, after our son was born three

years ago, the hardest part

603

: 00:30:41

of that transition for us was

feeling disconnected in marriage.

604

: 00:30:45

And we didn't even really realize it

for a little bit, but I think about a

605

: 00:30:49

month or a month and a half into it at

some point, AJ said to me, like, we're

606

: 00:30:54

doing a great job working as a team

to take care of our baby, but I think

607

: 00:31:00

we're working so much like side to side,

looking at the baby, taking care of him.

608

: 00:31:04

We haven't actually turned

towards each other and looked at

609

: 00:31:07

each other, like basically since

he was born and he was right.

610

: 00:31:10

And that was really helpful to

just name that that was happening.

611

: 00:31:13

And then to come up with a game plan

of Like what can we do to reconnect

612

: 00:31:18

and maintain our connection as parents

now with especially with a little

613

: 00:31:22

baby who Everything feels urgent

because a little baby, a newborn

614

: 00:31:28

or young kids are fully 100 percent

dependent on you and your spouse isn't.

615

: 00:31:33

They're an adult.

616

: 00:31:34

They can feed themselves.

617

: 00:31:35

They can go to the bathroom themselves.

618

: 00:31:37

They can take care of themselves.

619

: 00:31:38

And so it's easier to neglect your

husband or your wife or your kids.

620

: 00:31:42

marriage you can get by, you

can live where your baby can't.

621

: 00:31:47

And so, um, dr.

622

: 00:31:49

John Gottman, if anyone is not

familiar with him, he's a psychologist

623

: 00:31:53

specifically focused on marriages and

has done over 50 years of research on

624

: 00:31:58

marriages, super great resource for

married couples, but he found that 67

625

: 00:32:03

percent of couples experienced a decrease

in the quality of their relationship

626

: 00:32:07

in the first three years of marriage.

627

: 00:32:08

Um, after a baby was born.

628

: 00:32:10

So just all of this to

say, you're not alone.

629

: 00:32:12

This is such a common experience.

630

: 00:32:13

And this was the number one thing

that people were coming to me with.

631

: 00:32:17

Like, this is a problem.

632

: 00:32:19

How do I manage this?

633

: 00:32:21

How do I reconnect with my spouse?

634

: 00:32:22

And so because of that, because it was

such a common question last year in

635

: 00:32:26

October, I launched my marriage connection

challenge for new parents specifically.

636

: 00:32:31

And.

637

: 00:32:32

Actually, like it applies to all the

challenge applies to all couples,

638

: 00:32:36

but the examples and the way that

the languages is just specifically

639

: 00:32:40

geared towards that time of life.

640

: 00:32:41

Cause it's such a time of life, but

it's a 14 day challenge with short

641

: 00:32:47

videos Every day Every day has a

theme scripture and like just a really

642

: 00:32:51

simple challenge that you're able to,

um, put in, you're able to have the

643

: 00:32:56

capacity to do these little challenges.

644

: 00:32:58

Even if you have a baby that's.

645

: 00:33:00

two weeks old, you can spend two

minutes of your day connecting

646

: 00:33:03

with your spouse in a certain way.

647

: 00:33:05

Um, and the feedback from

that was so beautiful.

648

: 00:33:09

I was hearing from couples that

after the first day, they felt more

649

: 00:33:12

connected than they had in years.

650

: 00:33:15

And for example, like the first day,

the challenge, and I'll share here,

651

: 00:33:18

the challenge for the first day is just

to make eye contact for two minutes.

652

: 00:33:22

But when we have a newborn, eye

contact is not happening at all.

653

: 00:33:27

And are we spending quality time together?

654

: 00:33:29

Are we looking at each other?

655

: 00:33:30

Are we having these meaningful again,

like going back to the basics, but

656

: 00:33:34

it's just so easy to get away from

the basics when we have a newborn.

657

: 00:33:38

Um, so yeah, going back to the

marriage connection challenge.

658

: 00:33:42

I have a code 15 percent off.

659

: 00:33:46

They can use the code ever be, um, to join

that if that would be helpful for them.

660

: 00:33:50

But.

661

: 00:33:51

Things like date nights, things like

eye contact, things like holding hands,

662

: 00:33:54

like really going back to the basics.

663

: 00:33:55

How did you feel connected to

your spouse before having a baby?

664

: 00:33:59

Have you done that since having a baby?

665

: 00:34:01

That's like a question I

would start with because

666

: 00:34:03

Mari Wagner: Mm hmm.

667

: 00:34:04

I love that.

668

: 00:34:05

Okay.

669

: 00:34:06

Can you speak to the

importance of date nights?

670

: 00:34:08

Um, this isn't a new concept, right?

671

: 00:34:10

Everybody has heard of date nights.

672

: 00:34:12

It's not a foreign thing.

673

: 00:34:13

We've all been on a date night, but

I know that sometimes even with or

674

: 00:34:17

without kids, the more you get into

your marriage, it's almost like

675

: 00:34:20

they kind of start to slip away.

676

: 00:34:22

And I think that like, when we are in

the dating stages, That's like your main

677

: 00:34:26

points of connection with your spouse.

678

: 00:34:29

Like when you're doing all these like

wonderful things to woo each other

679

: 00:34:31

and sweep each other off your feet

and then you get married and then your

680

: 00:34:34

points of connection are so much more

frequent, but less special, you know,

681

: 00:34:40

in a way like, you know, we're brushing

our teeth together or we're making

682

: 00:34:43

dinner or we're eating or we're just

driving to the next place or whatever.

683

: 00:34:46

It's just more frequent

points of contact, but less.

684

: 00:34:49

Butterflies are happening.

685

: 00:34:51

And so can you talk a little

bit about date nights?

686

: 00:34:54

Why are they important?

687

: 00:34:56

Maybe some tips on how people

can make it a priority if it's

688

: 00:34:58

something we struggle with right now.

689

: 00:35:01

Melissa Tablada: Yeah.

690

: 00:35:02

Being together.

691

: 00:35:03

All the time doesn't necessarily mean

that we're having quality time together.

692

: 00:35:08

If we're, we're just existing

together, which is beautiful.

693

: 00:35:10

Like there's something so beautiful

about just living all of the day to day

694

: 00:35:15

mundane moments, like you said, brushing

your teeth together and doing all of

695

: 00:35:19

that and like being best friends with

your spouse and going through day to

696

: 00:35:21

day together, but we need quality time.

697

: 00:35:26

We can not be, we can't maintain.

698

: 00:35:29

Connection just by existing

in each other's presence.

699

: 00:35:32

We need real quality time and date nights

not only offer the opportunity for that

700

: 00:35:38

quality time, but also encourage us

to put in a little bit of extra time,

701

: 00:35:42

energy, effort into preparing ourselves

for our spouse and presenting ourselves.

702

: 00:35:48

Well to our spouse.

703

: 00:35:49

So yes, we love each other at baseline.

704

: 00:35:52

We love each other as we look when

we wake up in the morning, all grungy

705

: 00:35:56

and everything, but it communicates

such an, it's such an active love

706

: 00:36:01

and communicates love and that the

other is important to us, that we care

707

: 00:36:05

about how they see us, that they're

an important person in our life.

708

: 00:36:08

When we put in a little bit of extra

time and energy, um, into preparing

709

: 00:36:12

ourselves for them, which often

happens with date nights, whether it's

710

: 00:36:15

a date night out or a date night in.

711

: 00:36:18

But it's easy to stop doing that

when you've been married for some

712

: 00:36:20

time or just busy or distracted.

713

: 00:36:23

And,.

714

: 00:36:23

The other thing with date nights is

especially like think about a date

715

: 00:36:27

night and anything can be special.

716

: 00:36:28

We just have to make it special.

717

: 00:36:30

It just means we're turning towards

each other and we're intentionally

718

: 00:36:33

spending time focused on our marriage.

719

: 00:36:36

I remember something I heard at a

marriage retreat when we were first

720

: 00:36:39

married and it really impacted me a lot.

721

: 00:36:43

This woman who was.

722

: 00:36:45

A more seasoned wife had

been married for many years.

723

: 00:36:48

She said early in her marriage.

724

: 00:36:50

She just got really comfortable and um,

you know, into the rhythm of daily life.

725

: 00:36:54

And she was a stay at home

mom and a stay at home wife.

726

: 00:36:57

And she was taking care of the home

and she just got really comfortable.

727

: 00:37:00

Like she would go to the gym and she

would stay in her workout clothes.

728

: 00:37:02

And like, maybe she wouldn't get

around to showering that day.

729

: 00:37:05

And at some point her husband

made a comment about that.

730

: 00:37:07

Like, what?

731

: 00:37:08

You never get dressed anymore.

732

: 00:37:10

You never, you know, and she kind

of got offended by that first, like,

733

: 00:37:15

Mari Wagner: Right.

734

: 00:37:15

Melissa Tablada: just love

me as I am kind of thing.

735

: 00:37:18

But then she also said,

well, I'm not seeing anyone.

736

: 00:37:21

I'm not going anywhere.

737

: 00:37:22

And then she realized that she was

communicating the message and even

738

: 00:37:25

thinking to herself, my husband is no one.

739

: 00:37:28

He doesn't matter.

740

: 00:37:29

He's not worth it.

741

: 00:37:30

Getting dressed for only others are

worth getting dressed for and taking

742

: 00:37:34

care of myself for and showering

for and she realized how How

743

: 00:37:40

distorted that was that the person

who was most important in her life?

744

: 00:37:44

Who's she loved most in her life

who she knew would accept her and

745

: 00:37:48

love her no matter what she looked

like But she was also treating him

746

: 00:37:52

as if he was the least important.

747

: 00:37:53

He was not worth, only other people were

worth her putting in the effort for.

748

: 00:37:58

So even looking at a date night that way

of like a date night could just be us

749

: 00:38:04

having dinner together at home, but it

just means I put care and energy into.

750

: 00:38:10

Being here with you and I care about

you and there was a little bit of extra

751

: 00:38:14

Mari Wagner: hmm.

752

: 00:38:14

Yeah, I love the whole idea of just Um,

making the effort to make things special

753

: 00:38:19

and even taking the effort to feel things

especially, you know, like I, I think one

754

: 00:38:25

thing we, we talk about often with other

couples is like, well, it just doesn't

755

: 00:38:29

feel like it does when we were dating.

756

: 00:38:30

Like we can go on these dates or we can,

you know, try and connect in these ways,

757

: 00:38:33

but it doesn't feel the exact same.

758

: 00:38:35

And it's like, well, yeah, you're

in a different place of life.

759

: 00:38:37

It's, it's not going to feel

the exact same, but we can also

760

: 00:38:40

make that intentional decision

to do something a little bit.

761

: 00:38:44

Out of the ordinary to make it special

like we would when we were dating or to

762

: 00:38:48

even receive it in a special way of just

like, Hey, he put his stuff down and like

763

: 00:38:52

kissed me like, Oh my gosh, I'm going

to choose to be like excited about it

764

: 00:38:56

instead of like, Oh yeah, it's my husband.

765

: 00:38:58

I get a kiss from him every day.

766

: 00:38:59

You know what I mean?

767

: 00:39:00

So even changing the, the, the mindset

on both ends of like, I'm going to

768

: 00:39:03

make an effort to do something special

and make an effort to like receive the

769

: 00:39:07

intention in a special way as well,

I think is, is a helpful tool there.

770

: 00:39:12

Melissa Tablada: Yes, we have so much

more control over our feelings than

771

: 00:39:15

we give ourselves credit for than we

think that we do And I think it's pretty

772

: 00:39:20

trendy like in social media and things to

romanticize our life but really like Do it

773

: 00:39:25

Mari Wagner: Yes.

774

: 00:39:26

Melissa Tablada: your marriage romanticize

everything your spouse does because the

775

: 00:39:30

only thing that that will do it will not

stop you You're still gonna see what the

776

: 00:39:33

problems are that you need to address.

777

: 00:39:35

You're not gonna ignore ignore those

don't do that But what I'm saying is

778

: 00:39:40

look for the littlest thing that you can

Enjoy and romanticize and make beautiful

779

: 00:39:46

because those are beautiful things.

780

: 00:39:48

Every little thing matters.

781

: 00:39:50

And the more we pay attention to

the little things and appreciate

782

: 00:39:54

them and express gratitude for them,

the more our spouse is encouraged

783

: 00:39:58

to continue doing more of that.

784

: 00:39:59

So we should romanticize every

785

: 00:40:02

Mari Wagner: Yes.

786

: 00:40:03

Absolutely.

787

: 00:40:03

Melissa Tablada: can

788

: 00:40:04

Mari Wagner: Well, this conversation

has been so helpful and so fruitful.

789

: 00:40:07

I know that I'm going to be taking

so much away from this conversation

790

: 00:40:10

today into my own marriage.

791

: 00:40:12

Uh, before we just wrap up and talk

a little bit more about where people

792

: 00:40:15

can find you, do you just have any

like last encouraging words or advice

793

: 00:40:19

for people that are listening in?

794

: 00:40:22

Melissa Tablada: Yeah.

795

: 00:40:22

One quote that always

sticks in my mind is St.

796

: 00:40:26

John, Chris's dome.

797

: 00:40:27

He said, when a husband and wife are

united in marriage, they no longer

798

: 00:40:30

seem like something earthly, but

rather like the image of God himself.

799

: 00:40:34

And that is what we're called to.

800

: 00:40:37

It's so beautiful.

801

: 00:40:38

And also.

802

: 00:40:40

We are all so fully human and We

all have experienced brokenness.

803

: 00:40:46

We all come from families

who are not perfect.

804

: 00:40:49

And so going to impact the way

that we show up in marriage.

805

: 00:40:54

Marriage can sometimes be very difficult.

806

: 00:40:56

And, um, one thing that I think is

a really helpful lens, and maybe

807

: 00:41:01

I'll just leave everyone with this,

is when we go through challenges

808

: 00:41:05

and difficulties and conflict, In a

sacramental marriage, all of that can be

809

: 00:41:12

used for our good and is so important.

810

: 00:41:14

is meant for our good.

811

: 00:41:16

Um, so when challenges come up,

we're meant to grow through that

812

: 00:41:20

and find greater levels of healing

through that experience and become

813

: 00:41:25

more connected to our spouse and

to God through that experience.

814

: 00:41:29

And so it just brings, I find that

brings like, even for me, a lot of

815

: 00:41:33

hope into, um, my experiences when

I'm struggling on my husband and

816

: 00:41:40

I's worst days together in marriage.

817

: 00:41:43

It just helps me have hope that of

knowing that God is in this with me.

818

: 00:41:47

He hasn't abandoned me and he's

going to find a way to bring

819

: 00:41:50

goodness out of this because he

brings goodness out of everything.

820

: 00:41:54

So I think that can help us

when we're just in the thick of

821

: 00:41:57

Mari Wagner: That was so much truth and

so much wisdom packed into that little

822

: 00:42:01

quote and that little explanation.

823

: 00:42:02

So I'm glad I asked that question and

that we just get to end on that note.

824

: 00:42:06

Uh, Melissa, where can people find more

of you and just find all your services?

825

: 00:42:13

Melissa Tablada: Yes.

826

: 00:42:14

So definitely you can find me on

Instagram, Melissa Grace Tablada.

827

: 00:42:18

That's where I'm most active,

um, services that I offer.

828

: 00:42:22

So I offer marriage and family

therapy services specifically

829

: 00:42:26

for those who are in Florida.

830

: 00:42:27

Unfortunately, therapist

licenses are limited by state.

831

: 00:42:31

Um, but I do also offer relationship

coaching services for clients who are

832

: 00:42:35

around the country and around the world.

833

: 00:42:37

So if anyone's interested in

those services, emailing me is

834

: 00:42:40

the best way to get in contact,

Melissa, grace, a lot of at gmail.

835

: 00:42:43

com.

836

: 00:42:44

And then lastly, the resources I

mentioned, the marriage connection

837

: 00:42:47

challenge for new parents, which I'll

share the link with you for, um, and

838

: 00:42:51

the code ever be, we'll give them

a discount questions for a better,

839

: 00:42:55

a better conversations that's the

free download and then coming soon.

840

: 00:43:02

Basics on communication

skills, because I know

841

: 00:43:04

Mari Wagner: Yes, that's

going to be so helpful.

842

: 00:43:06

All your resources are so helpful.

843

: 00:43:07

So definitely if you're listening

in and go check Melissa out.

844

: 00:43:11

Melissa, thanks so much

for being with us today.

845

: 00:43:13

It's been a joy to have you, um, on

the podcast for your very first debut.

846

: 00:43:17

Melissa Tablada: Yay,

847

: 00:43:18

Mari Wagner: See you next Wednesday.