72: An Honest Conversation About Intimacy and Sex in Marriage | Ellen Holloway

Speaker: 00:00:06

Hey, I am your host, Mari Wagner,

and you're listening to The Ever Be

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Podcast where Faith Meets Lifestyle.

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I'm so excited you're here.

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Whether you're a new listener

or a longtime follower, I know

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there's something here for you.

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Pull up a chair and listen in for

insightful, real life conversations and

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actionable steps on how to claim the.

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Full life God created you for.

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If you're a woman desiring to live

a Christ-centered life in today's

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modern world, then this is for you.

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Welcome to ever be.

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554:

Welcome back to ever Be everybody.

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We have a very fun guest

today, Ellen Holloway.

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And we are gonna get juicy.

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We are gonna get deep,

we're gonna get intimate.

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We're gonna be talking about

intimacy and sex in marriage.

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And she has so much goodness to share

and I'm so excited for us to have

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this conversation because I feel like

it can be a little taboo and people

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don't wanna talk about it, especially

in Christian Catholic circles.

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And we're gonna get into all that.

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Okay.

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Before we jump in, let's

start in with our new segment.

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Ever Be Moments.

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This is a space for us to just

glorify God and keep the Lord's

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praise ever be on our lips, which

is the mission of this podcast.

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So Ellen, what is your

ever be moment of the week?

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554: Sure.

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So I love sunsets.

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Anybody who like is close with me

knows just how much I love sunsets.

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And the other day I was driving and

I was actually driving away from the

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sunset, so I couldn't see it at all.

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But my 4-year-old son, just like out

of the blue, like it was quiet in the

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car and he was just like, ah, mom.

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Look at the sunset and it

just warmed my heart so much

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because I love sunset so much.

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And like he noticed it for me

and like God was just like, I

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want you to notice the sunset.

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And he, he like.

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Orchestrated that through my little

4-year-old son who's just like bopping

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around in the car, and it was just

like so sweet that he wanted to point

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it out to me and that I gotta see this

just beautiful sunset with pinks and

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purples and oranges and all of that.

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554:

That is so cute.

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I love that.

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I think for me, okay, have you heard

Justin Bieber's new song, everything?

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Hallelujah.

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Are you a Justin Bieber girl?

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

I, I'm not, I have not

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Okay.

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

now I'm curious.

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Okay.

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Well he dropped a new album recently.

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It's hilarious.

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It's called Swag two.

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Okay.

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So it's not like a Christian album, but

uh, the little side of of JB that is

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Christian like, came out and there are two

tracks on there that are actually like.

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Super deep and one of 'em is everything.

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Hallelujah.

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And then the other one is called The

Story of God, where he's basically

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just like preaching the gospel.

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It just like talking it like in

the story format and talking about

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Genesis and how God came to love us.

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It's beautiful.

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I mean, go listen to it.

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'cause I've, I was like very moved.

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But the song, everything, hallelujah.

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I've been playing it so much and

it's kind of funny taking like

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faith advice or learning about

faith from Justin Bieber, but.

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His whole song is about how like, it, it

seems to be about his wife and his child

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and how like he's just experiencing like

the love of the father through them.

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And his motto is just like,

everything, hallelujah.

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Like I, everything gives

me a reason to praise God.

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And that's kind of been like my

mindset the last couple weeks as I've

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heard this song over and over again.

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'cause it is also catchy.

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But he says like.

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We take a walk.

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Hallelujah.

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I brush my teeth.

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Hallelujah.

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I look at her, hallelujah.

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Like everything in my life, there's a

reason to praise God and it's, it's kind

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of a gratitude mindset that I've kind of

shifted towards in the last few weeks,

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and I've truly experienced just like.

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More joy and more noticing of the

Lord, and just like more praise

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towards the Lord in my life.

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Because I'm just like,

okay, like get out of bed.

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Hallelujah.

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Do this work thing.

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Hallelujah.

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Go on a walk.

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Hallelujah.

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Like there's always like

reasons to praise God.

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So yeah, it's been refreshing

and, and beautiful.

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That's my ever be moment.

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

Oh, I love that.

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I have to listen to that song now.

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554:

We will make sure to link it too.

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Everybody should go listen to that song.

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We're gonna have a super open

and honest conversation today.

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So Ellen, why don't you go

ahead and introduce yourself.

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554: Thanks

so much for having me on the podcast.

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I just love talking about this topic

because nobody likes to talk about it.

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If you had asked me when I was 14

years old, what I would be doing

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with my life at 31, it would not be.

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Teaching Catholic women

about sex and intimacy.

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That would be the opposite of that.

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I grew up like super purity culture

and sex was bad and dirty, and my

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marriage started at rock bottom.

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I mean, we, within a month we were just

like, oh my gosh, did we make the biggest

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mistake of our life by getting married?

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Like,

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Hmm.

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554: We

had to like slowly by the grace of God,

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like dig ourselves out of this hole that

we had created for ourselves, um, with

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not using natural family planning, not

understanding the beauty and goodness of

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sex and intimacy, all of these things.

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And we slowly did.

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And then I just had one of those moments

with God where I was laying there in

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bed late at night, not able to sleep,

and I was like, God, is so hard.

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This is so hard and I hate this,

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Hmm.

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

you tell me when, and I will do

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anything you tell me to make this

not a problem for other women, like

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whatever you want me to do, Lord.

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And so about.

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Four years after that, I started the

Charting Toward Intimacy podcast and

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my ministry has grown from there.

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I do coaching and courses for Catholic

women on practical sex education,

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the things that no one wants to teach

you, things like how to orgasm and

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what's allowed in the bedroom, and

all of those fun, exciting things.

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554:

I love it.

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We are just getting right into it.

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Thank you for sharing.

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That is such a, um, tricky and

slightly dangerous prayer to pray

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to the Lord when you really mean it.

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When you're like.

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Yes.

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When you say use me, when you say, I will

say yes to anything you say, you just get

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ready 'cause your life is about to change.

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I've been there and it's

just, you better be ready.

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So

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554: Yeah.

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554:

is amazing.

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

was ready and thank, thank you, Lord,

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: you.

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

he like, he didn't immediately

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go, okay, here you go.

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Like, he gave me a few years and

then the podcast started and then

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it just like went from there.

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554:

I love that.

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That's amazing.

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Well, let's just jump right in, and

we both touched on it a little bit,

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but why do you think so many Catholic

couples and, you know, young people

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especially feel like sex is either

taboo or off limits to talk about?

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Um, even though it is

so central to marriage.

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554: You

know, we truly can trace it back to our,

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like, Puritan roots in the United States.

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Um, because if you look at any

other culture, like if you look at

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European, young, like newly married

Catholics, if you look at Australian

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young, newly married Catholics, they

don't have quite as many hangups.

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As we do, of course they've

got their own issues.

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I'm not saying, you know, if you

grew up in France, you're perfect.

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Um,

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Honestly that Puritan culture is

like so seeped into the United States

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that no matter how much Hollywood and

different industries want to make sex

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like a normal free thing, no matter

how much the sexual revolution changed

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things in the seventies, there's

still this like overbearing puritan.

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Like we don't talk about that.

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It's not appropriate to talk about

that and that then, you know from

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that we kind of get the purity culture

that you hear a lot more in like

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evangelical, Protestant, Christian

circles, but we definitely have it in our

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Catholic circles as well of just this.

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Parents are not talking openly and

honestly about sex with their children.

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They're kind of like, oh, that's, I

probably shouldn't talk about that.

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I, I'm not comfortable talking about that.

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And then we sort of get this like,

it's, it's sort of pushed to the side.

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It's put in the closet.

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Oh, we'll deal with that when we need to.

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And there's no.

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Like good, solid, beautiful foundation

of what sex really is and how, how

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good and beautiful and holy it is.

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And so then as we get into like high

school, we're like, oh, we kind of

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swing one of two pendulum ways, right?

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We've got this, I'm just

gonna shove sex in the corner.

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It's dirty.

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I'm not gonna think about it.

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I'm not even gonna like say the words or

this kind of other pendulum swing of like.

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no one ever talked to me about it.

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I'm gonna figure it out for

myself and you know, and maybe

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make some mistakes along the way.

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Mm-hmm.

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

And yeah.

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And so now we're kind of at this

point, and I encounter so many

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Catholic women who get married

and one has taught them about sex.

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No one has taught them about, you

know, we know how babies are made.

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We learn that in like health class,

we know how the, the, you know, our

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fallopian tubes work and ovulation,

all that kind of stuff, right?

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But no one teaches us about the clitoris

and the vulva and the blood flow and

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how women actually experience pleasure.

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And that is equally as important

as male pleasure in sex.

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But it's just like.

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It's silent.

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There's crickets.

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No one talks about that, whether in

or outside of a religious context,

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Yeah.

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554: so

that's kind of where I inserted myself.

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554:

Yeah, true.

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And it just leaves, you know, young

people, high schoolers, college students,

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especially people who are not in that

stage yet, you know, not in marriage,

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left to the internet to figure out

like, okay, so like, how do you do this?

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And that's a really dangerous place to

be in on this topic, in this day and age.

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So I'm glad that, yeah, you're.

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You're doing work to make

the conversation more open.

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And one thing that came to mind is

that even married people, I mean

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obviously there's, there's prudence

and there's boundaries in what you're

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sharing, but just being able to

talk about this topic in general,

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and especially from an educational

standpoint, I think is really important.

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And to be able to do

that, you have to believe.

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That sex is good and sex is holy, right?

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Because if we believe that it's

intrinsically bad, it's like, well,

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it's not appropriate to talk about, well

then we should not be talking about it.

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But if we shift that belief and

belief that it is good, then

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it's worth a conversation and the

conversation is actually necessary

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and important to be having.

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And so I feel like a lot of

people, you know, we're told from.

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Catholic or purity culture, like

sex is bad, sex is bad, sex is bad.

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And so there's just this

thought of like, it's bad.

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Um, and I know that you talk about

how God designed sex to be both

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holy and pleasurable, and that

that doesn't make it a bad thing.

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So for somebody who grew up thinking

pleasure equals sin, right, sex equals

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bad, how can they begin to reframe that?

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

So I have found that what it

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really takes is like rewriting

the script that's in your head.

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And so first we need to address

what is the script in your head?

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What are you telling yourself

about sex and about pleasure?

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And you know, maybe these are

like the words of your mom.

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Or the words of your, you know, youth

minister in high school, or words of

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your friends, like, what are those words

that are around in your head whenever

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you think about sex and pleasure?

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Do you think that it's sinful?

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Do you think that it's bad?

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Do you think that you are, um,

tainted or dirty because of it?

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You know, what are the words?

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And I'm not saying any of those are true.

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I'm just like, those are probably

the words that are in your head.

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Address them and write them down.

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Because when we can put them

down on paper, then we can say,

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Jesus, please take this away.

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Like take this lie away, then.

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Again, on paper, you're gonna

write down what the truth is,

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: And.

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

that truth is that sex is good.

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Sex is holy, pleasure is good.

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Pleasure is designed by God.

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Fun fact, women, the clitoris has zero

function other than sexual pleasure.

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Like there's no point to having this

organ in our body except sexual pleasure.

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If that doesn't tell us how God loves

sexual pleasure and how much he cares

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about enjoying sex, then I don't know.

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I don't know what's gonna tell us, but

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554:

That's so true.

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554: I

am, a huge theology of the body nerd.

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And one of the best things about

Theology of the Body that I love

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is that we can let the biological

inform the theological, right?

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So we can look at our bodies and say, wow.

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I have this thing called the

clitoris whose only function is

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sexual pleasure and orgasm like.

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That's insane if we just like, stop

and think about that for a long time.

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Right.

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And

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Totally

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

like, and, and again for, for those of

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us who are like really in that purity

culture, uh, clenched fist situation,

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this might sound a little wild to

you, but like take that to adoration.

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Like just meditate on your

clitoris in adoration.

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I'm not

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mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: put a.

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ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554: Like.

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Ask.

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I know, right?

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Ask God to tell you why he created

that, why he cares about it,

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what it's doing in your body.

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And like, let God just

give you the truths.

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Um, and I just, I really

recommend writing them down.

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'cause when we can see the

lie, we can ask God, we can

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renounce that lie in Jesus' name.

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And then when we can see the truth,

we can like when we write it out, when

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we see it, we are a body, soul union.

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So just thinking something

sometimes isn't enough.

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Like we need to use our body

to rewrite those scripts.

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So writing it down, saying it out loud,

reading it, those kind of things can

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really help us in rewriting that script

and just recognizing that it takes time.

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if you are 25.

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And you're locked up in some,

I mean, for lack of a better

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term, some purity culture crap.

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It might take that long

to unwrap all of it.

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: 00:14:41

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Hmm.

299

: 00:14:41

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

don't, don't be upset if you've

300

: 00:14:44

been working on it for six

months and you still get hung up.

301

: 00:14:48

been working on this for decades

now, and I still, every once in

302

: 00:14:52

a while something happens and

I'm like, what is wrong with me?

303

: 00:14:54

Like, why am I still struggling

with this in my marriage?

304

: 00:14:57

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Hmm.

305

: 00:14:58

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

because I.

306

: 00:14:59

up my entire life with these lies,

and I'm, I'm unraveling them.

307

: 00:15:03

I'm unpacking them.

308

: 00:15:04

So let it take time.

309

: 00:15:05

It's okay.

310

: 00:15:05

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: That

statement, like, what is wrong with me?

311

: 00:15:08

I feel like so many women relate to that.

312

: 00:15:10

I feel like so many women probably say

that like in their heads, whether they

313

: 00:15:14

know it or not, or if it's subconscious,

they're thinking, what is wrong with me?

314

: 00:15:18

Why can't I figure this out?

315

: 00:15:20

Or why don't I want it?

316

: 00:15:21

You know, I know there's a lot of

women who were like, is something

317

: 00:15:24

wrong with me because I don't want sex.

318

: 00:15:27

I never really want it.

319

: 00:15:28

I never really desire it.

320

: 00:15:29

I always feel like it's my husband

proposing and I have to kind of

321

: 00:15:32

decide like yes or no, and I feel bad.

322

: 00:15:35

Um, and they're struggling

with, with low libido.

323

: 00:15:37

So what would you say to, to that woman?

324

: 00:15:41

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

So one of the things that I like to

325

: 00:15:43

address first is if, if you are having

like no desire to have sex, ask yourself

326

: 00:15:50

the question, are you having sex?

327

: 00:15:52

That is desirable.

328

: 00:15:54

Are you receiving sexual

pleasure from sex?

329

: 00:15:58

Are you receiving an orgasm?

330

: 00:16:00

Are you enjoying it?

331

: 00:16:01

Because if, if you're not, then there's

no way your body's gonna want to have sex.

332

: 00:16:07

Like, if it's not a pleasurable

experience, I mean, we can't,

333

: 00:16:11

we can't draw that line.

334

: 00:16:13

And so.

335

: 00:16:15

Start with that first, you know,

what can you work on to, can you

336

: 00:16:19

improve foreplay, do more foreplay?

337

: 00:16:21

Um, manual or oral stimulation of the

vulva area is a great way for women

338

: 00:16:27

to receive that blood flow and, um, to

actually receive that pleasure that comes.

339

: 00:16:32

I do, I have.

340

: 00:16:33

A course literally called the

Orgasm course for Catholic

341

: 00:16:36

Women that teaches all of this.

342

: 00:16:38

Um, but also sometimes it's just

like a trial and error thing.

343

: 00:16:41

You and your husband can work on it

together, but make sure that sex is

344

: 00:16:44

something that's actually enjoyable.

345

: 00:16:46

And then if sex is something that's

enjoyable and you're like, okay, yeah,

346

: 00:16:50

once I'm into it, I do enjoy it, but

I just never want sex to start with.

347

: 00:16:54

It could be one of kind of

two categories of things.

348

: 00:16:57

One is that you could have

something called responsive desire.

349

: 00:17:01

And Responsive desire is there's.

350

: 00:17:03

Two types of desire.

351

: 00:17:05

There's responsive desire

and spontaneous desire.

352

: 00:17:07

Spontaneous desire is

what we see in movies.

353

: 00:17:10

It's when like the couple looks

at each other across the room and

354

: 00:17:13

they're like, uh, yeah, let's go.

355

: 00:17:15

And then they like run into the bedroom.

356

: 00:17:16

Um, that happens about 50% of people.

357

: 00:17:19

Is that spontaneously

because of a thought?

358

: 00:17:22

Because somebody says something?

359

: 00:17:24

Um, just because of like a

quick touch on the shoulder.

360

: 00:17:27

You immediately want sex.

361

: 00:17:29

This is something that is.

362

: 00:17:30

More common in men.

363

: 00:17:33

doesn't mean that women don't

have spontaneous desire.

364

: 00:17:35

Roughly 50% of the population

have spontaneous desire.

365

: 00:17:38

About 85% of men have

spontaneous desire and about.

366

: 00:17:43

So what's the opposite there to 15, 15%

of women have, uh, spontaneous desire,

367

: 00:17:49

and then 85% of women and 15% of men

have what is called responsive desire.

368

: 00:17:55

And this means that your desire,

your physical desire for sex

369

: 00:17:59

comes after a stimuli, uh, a

physical or emotional stimuli.

370

: 00:18:04

So you might not actually,

your body may not be.

371

: 00:18:07

Programmed in a way to want sex

until you start foreplay and your

372

: 00:18:13

blood starts flowing and you start

receiving that physical stimuli.

373

: 00:18:17

Um, or

374

: 00:18:17

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Mm-hmm.

375

: 00:18:18

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

want sex until you have like a very

376

: 00:18:20

deep, like emotional connection.

377

: 00:18:22

Maybe you guys, you know, sit down

with a cup of tea and uh, just really

378

: 00:18:26

like talk about your day or talk

about something important, and then

379

: 00:18:30

you're kinda like, oh man, like I

could really go to the bedroom now.

380

: 00:18:34

That there's nothing wrong with you if

that's how you are like primed for sex.

381

: 00:18:40

It simply means that you

have responsive desire.

382

: 00:18:42

So again, there's no brokenness

if you have responsive desire.

383

: 00:18:46

It's just different

than spontaneous desire.

384

: 00:18:48

And a lot of times we think

of spontaneous desire as the

385

: 00:18:52

normal, and that's not the case.

386

: 00:18:54

It's half the population.

387

: 00:18:56

And then

388

: 00:18:57

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Yeah,

389

: 00:18:57

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554: camp

that it could be is, this is like a super

390

: 00:19:01

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: go ahead.

391

: 00:19:02

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

to your question is, um, it

392

: 00:19:04

could be one of three things,

stress, nutrition, and sleep.

393

: 00:19:10

So if you are not getting adequate

sleep, your body is putting itself

394

: 00:19:14

into survival mode and sex is

not a survival tactic for women.

395

: 00:19:19

If you think about.

396

: 00:19:20

If you're being chased by a lion, the

last thing that your body wants is

397

: 00:19:24

to get pregnant because it would make

it harder to run away from the lion.

398

: 00:19:29

So if you are in like a high stress state.

399

: 00:19:32

If you have a lack of sleep or if,

um, and or if you are not eating

400

: 00:19:39

adequate nutrition, if you are not

getting enough good protein and healthy

401

: 00:19:43

fats, if you are not eating enough

calories, your body's in survival mode.

402

: 00:19:47

And so sex is literally gonna

be the last thing on the table.

403

: 00:19:50

So those are also things to just.

404

: 00:19:53

Work into and make sure that you are

getting, you know, eight to nine hours

405

: 00:19:57

of sleep, that you're eating enough

calories, like shoot for, you know, 80

406

: 00:20:01

to a hundred grams of protein, that's

really gonna set you up for success.

407

: 00:20:05

Um, and then managing your stress,

working on, uh, you know, different

408

: 00:20:09

stress mitigation or blocking things

off on your calendar and saying, no,

409

: 00:20:12

actually we don't need to do dance class

this fall, or whatever class it is.

410

: 00:20:18

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Yeah.

411

: 00:20:18

That's really great insight.

412

: 00:20:19

That reminds me, I know at some point

I feel like in some podcast or some

413

: 00:20:25

marriage retreat or something, I, I heard

the statement that sex and the desire

414

: 00:20:29

for sex happens outside of the bedroom

and it like starts like way before

415

: 00:20:34

you are actually in the bedroom, like.

416

: 00:20:37

Throughout the day, how are you showing

each other little cues that like you

417

: 00:20:41

love each other and you're interested in

each other and you know, you think each

418

: 00:20:45

other are attractive, or that emotional

connection you mentioned like earlier

419

: 00:20:49

throughout the day or throughout the week.

420

: 00:20:50

Like how are you connecting

on an emotional level?

421

: 00:20:53

How are you connecting

on a recreational level?

422

: 00:20:54

Like there's so many aspects

to the relationship that

423

: 00:20:57

build up that intimacy that.

424

: 00:21:00

That emotional intimacy that, especially

for women, I feel like needs to be there

425

: 00:21:04

for a lot of us to feel like we wanna

connect on that physical intimacy level.

426

: 00:21:08

So.

427

: 00:21:09

I love that you just gave that

perspective and that advice.

428

: 00:21:12

Um, and all just like the very like

survival thing and all the very,

429

: 00:21:17

primitive, like primitive is a word

I'm looking for, like very primitive

430

: 00:21:20

needs, like your food and your sleep

and your stress need to be figured out.

431

: 00:21:24

So if you don't have those figured

out, like you're not crazy, like

432

: 00:21:27

you're just like not a thriving

human being and that's okay.

433

: 00:21:30

Um.

434

: 00:21:31

So that was all really good,

really good to point out.

435

: 00:21:34

Now let's switch the question.

436

: 00:21:35

I feel like this isn't asked

as much, but it is absolutely

437

: 00:21:38

something that men experience.

438

: 00:21:39

What about when men have a lower libido?

439

: 00:21:42

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

Absolutely.

440

: 00:21:43

Yeah, and this is super common.

441

: 00:21:45

So one thing too that I didn't mention

is that it is completely normal

442

: 00:21:50

for like couples to have a slightly

different desires for frequency of sex.

443

: 00:21:56

That's totally normal.

444

: 00:21:58

Like it's actually would be.

445

: 00:22:00

Pretty abnormal.

446

: 00:22:01

If you and your husband like

always wanted to have sex at the

447

: 00:22:04

same time, that would be crazy.

448

: 00:22:06

That would be cool.

449

: 00:22:07

And like, go for it.

450

: 00:22:08

If that's what's going on

in your marriage, awesome.

451

: 00:22:11

But the, I mean, you're two human

beings, you're not going to be on

452

: 00:22:16

the same level for these things.

453

: 00:22:18

So.

454

: 00:22:19

Um, one is just to recognize that

like there is gonna be a spouse who

455

: 00:22:23

wants to have sex more than the other.

456

: 00:22:25

A lot of times that will also be the

spouse who has spontaneous desire.

457

: 00:22:30

Um, but it doesn't necessarily

have to be, and that is just

458

: 00:22:33

something on a communication

level to like, make sure you guys.

459

: 00:22:36

Chat about, um, talk about what seems

reasonable for frequency of sex.

460

: 00:22:42

Does a couple of times

a week seem reasonable?

461

: 00:22:45

Does every other day seem reasonable?

462

: 00:22:47

Does once a week seem reasonable?

463

: 00:22:49

There's no reason to like try

to keep up with the Joneses

464

: 00:22:53

on how much sex you're having.

465

: 00:22:55

Like

466

: 00:22:56

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Mm-hmm.

467

: 00:22:56

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

what works for you guys.

468

: 00:22:59

Now, men with low libido,

this is totally happens.

469

: 00:23:02

Um, one thing is.

470

: 00:23:04

Also look at the stress, nutrition,

and, um, sleep of your husband's.

471

: 00:23:10

Like if he has very low libido,

he's probably is in a, like high

472

: 00:23:15

stress state, um, or lack of

sleep, or lack of good nutrition.

473

: 00:23:20

Another thing that is more important

for men than for women is exercise.

474

: 00:23:25

Um, make sure that your husband

is exercising and, and don't, you

475

: 00:23:28

know, don't be a nag about it,

but like you can be like, Hey.

476

: 00:23:33

know you don't really want to have sex

that much, and you've expressed the

477

: 00:23:37

fact that you want to work on that.

478

: 00:23:39

I just heard this crazy person on the

internet tell me that if you work out

479

: 00:23:43

more, you're actually gonna want sex more.

480

: 00:23:45

So it's fine.

481

: 00:23:46

Call me a crazy person.

482

: 00:23:47

I don't care.

483

: 00:23:48

Um.

484

: 00:23:49

that actually can really

help men with low libido.

485

: 00:23:53

Um, or on the flip side, it

can also help with high libido.

486

: 00:23:56

If your husband is like, literally,

you feel like always wanting to have

487

: 00:24:00

sex, is he working out three to four

times a week and like heavy, you know,

488

: 00:24:06

heavy, working out, heavy lifting, high

intensity cardio, um, you know, like.

489

: 00:24:14

It's like, it's so necessary

for the male body to work out.

490

: 00:24:17

And I don't, our culture like doesn't

really recognize that, but it really is.

491

: 00:24:21

And yes, it's important for us as women

to work out, but like your husband

492

: 00:24:25

should be working out as much as he can.

493

: 00:24:27

Um, so those kinds of

things can help as well.

494

: 00:24:30

And then one of the things that people

ask me about a lot, um, is like, oh,

495

: 00:24:36

does he need to supplement testosterone?

496

: 00:24:38

Um, he probably does not.

497

: 00:24:40

Like supplementing testosterone does

very little, um, in men and women.

498

: 00:24:46

Like there's just, the research is

abysmal, uh, and it doesn't actually

499

: 00:24:51

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Hm.

500

: 00:24:52

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

anything more than a basic placebo effect.

501

: 00:24:55

Um, now you're welcome to

go and get hormones tested.

502

: 00:24:58

That's fine, but.

503

: 00:25:00

research, it has not proven to

actually be all that helpful.

504

: 00:25:03

And so what actually is much more

helpful is focusing on those like,

505

: 00:25:07

you know, those primitive needs.

506

: 00:25:09

Right.

507

: 00:25:10

Um, and then you as.

508

: 00:25:13

A couple communicating about

what does your husband need to

509

: 00:25:18

have in place, um, to desire sex?

510

: 00:25:21

And same goes for you.

511

: 00:25:23

What do you need to have

in place to desire sex?

512

: 00:25:25

Does there need to be more flirting?

513

: 00:25:27

Does there need to be more non-sexual

touch in your relationship?

514

: 00:25:30

Um, I love recommending the love languages

and just looking up what are each

515

: 00:25:35

other's love languages and just really

speaking into those love languages.

516

: 00:25:39

And then sometimes when it

517

: 00:25:40

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: So good.

518

: 00:25:41

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

Low libido on either side is.

519

: 00:25:44

Sometimes, like I myself, I'm, I'm the

lower libido, the lower sexual desire

520

: 00:25:49

spouse, and sometimes I need to recognize

that sex is not a purely physical act,

521

: 00:25:57

and when we are only relying on that.

522

: 00:25:59

Physical arousal and that physical

desire for our want to have sex, we're

523

: 00:26:05

reducing it to a purely physical act.

524

: 00:26:07

And that's not allowing sex to be the

full unitive gift that it is in marriage.

525

: 00:26:13

And so I need to lean into the other side.

526

: 00:26:17

The, I want to communicate

with my husband here.

527

: 00:26:20

I want to unite with him.

528

: 00:26:22

Um, I am, you know, it, it might even

be, I, I want to procreate right now.

529

: 00:26:27

And even though I don't

really feel like it, like.

530

: 00:26:29

That is you are allowed to lean

on that desire to go and have sex.

531

: 00:26:33

That's okay.

532

: 00:26:34

We don't wanna lean too far in

any direction of any one desire.

533

: 00:26:38

And the same goes for the

physical desire to have sex.

534

: 00:26:40

We don't wanna lean too far,

but we can tap into these.

535

: 00:26:44

Deeper desires that are more emotional

and spiritual to like have sex and

536

: 00:26:50

like just recognize, okay, I want to,

I want to give this gift to my spouse

537

: 00:26:55

and I want to unite with them even

though I'm just not really feeling it.

538

: 00:26:58

And that's okay.

539

: 00:26:59

We don't have to physically be

aroused in order to say yes to sex.

540

: 00:27:05

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554:

Yeah, so good.

541

: 00:27:06

I think in conversations that.

542

: 00:27:08

A lot of women have the topic of pain

kind of comes up and not desiring

543

: 00:27:14

sex because it might be painful.

544

: 00:27:16

Um, and we know or we should

know that that's not normal.

545

: 00:27:19

That's not how it should be or

how it was made to, made to be.

546

: 00:27:23

So for the couples that are experiencing

pain during intimacy, whether physical

547

: 00:27:28

or obviously there can be emotional

as well, um, what is the first like

548

: 00:27:33

brave step that they can take towards

opening that conversation and healing?

549

: 00:27:38

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554: Sure.

550

: 00:27:39

So I think the most important

thing when it comes to pain is to

551

: 00:27:44

never try to push through pain.

552

: 00:27:46

So if you have been pushing through

pain in your relationship, then

553

: 00:27:51

that first brave step is going to be

sitting down with your husband and

554

: 00:27:54

saying, Hey, penetration hurts, and

we are gonna have to figure this out.

555

: 00:27:59

I'm not, I'm no longer gonna push through

the pain, pushing through the pain.

556

: 00:28:03

Only makes it worse.

557

: 00:28:05

It only triggers your nervous

system into, uh, desiring sex less.

558

: 00:28:10

And it only makes the tension that is

causing that pain because your body

559

: 00:28:16

like is tightening because of the

pain, and then it tightens because it

560

: 00:28:19

doesn't want to experience the pain.

561

: 00:28:21

And it's just, it, it becomes this cycle

that keeps going and going and going.

562

: 00:28:25

It's like kind of this

pain, fear, tension cycle.

563

: 00:28:27

If you're fearing it, you experience

more tension and then you experience

564

: 00:28:31

more pain and then you fear it more.

565

: 00:28:33

So that first brave step is going to be

making sure that anytime you feel pain,

566

: 00:28:38

you stop and assess what's going on.

567

: 00:28:42

Now, for some instances of pain,

and actually a, a vast majority of

568

: 00:28:47

the instances of pain, it is lack

of arousal and lack of lubrication.

569

: 00:28:51

So these are super easy

things that you can address.

570

: 00:28:55

want you, if you're experiencing pain

with like penetration, I want you to

571

: 00:29:00

make sure that you're doing at least 20

minutes of foreplay every single time.

572

: 00:29:04

And I want you to use lubrication.

573

: 00:29:07

Um, I recommend sweet almond or jojoba.

574

: 00:29:10

Oil oils are great because you.

575

: 00:29:13

Uh, skin doesn't like soak them up

as fast as a water-based lubricant.

576

: 00:29:17

They are totally pure.

577

: 00:29:19

Like if you get a hundred percent

oil, you're not getting all sorts

578

: 00:29:23

of other things that don't look

at the list of astroglide friends.

579

: 00:29:28

Don't look at the ingredients list.

580

: 00:29:30

Um.

581

: 00:29:31

So I recommend oil.

582

: 00:29:32

It's a, it's a great choice.

583

: 00:29:33

The main reason why oil isn't typically

recommended in the wider world is because

584

: 00:29:38

it affects the effectiveness of condoms.

585

: 00:29:41

And obviously we don't care about

that, um, because we're using NFV.

586

: 00:29:46

So oil is a fantastic lubricant.

587

: 00:29:48

I don't recommend coconut oil

because it can throw the pH of your

588

: 00:29:52

vagina like completely out of whack.

589

: 00:29:54

So sweet almond oil or jojoba

oil are gonna be your best bets.

590

: 00:29:59

so.

591

: 00:30:00

sure that you've got those two

things like checked off, that

592

: 00:30:03

you're getting well aroused.

593

: 00:30:06

Um, what arousal does for the female body

is that it lengthens the vaginal canal and

594

: 00:30:12

it actually widens the vaginal opening.

595

: 00:30:14

So it makes it possible for the

man's penis to actually enter in.

596

: 00:30:19

Um, if you haven't gotten to a full

enough arousal state, it's going to

597

: 00:30:23

be painful simply because your body

hasn't prepared itself enough for sex.

598

: 00:30:29

Then beyond that then it could be

any number of, um, pelvic disorders.

599

: 00:30:36

So there are all sorts of names, and

I'm not gonna bore you with the names.

600

: 00:30:41

Um, but I think the most important

thing to recognize when it comes

601

: 00:30:44

to pain with sex is that this

is a psychophysical disorder.

602

: 00:30:49

Meaning that if you heal the

physical but you don't address.

603

: 00:30:52

The psychological at all,

you're not going to be healed.

604

: 00:30:56

Um, so you need to address both sizes

as like a two-sided coin of pain.

605

: 00:31:01

Um, pelvic floor physical therapy can be

super helpful, but again, pelvic floor

606

: 00:31:05

physical therapists are not going to

address the psychological effects of it.

607

: 00:31:09

Actually did create a course about painful

sex and how to heal painful sex, um, and

608

: 00:31:15

really showing both sides of that coin.

609

: 00:31:18

So I think that's the most important

thing to recognize is that like we've

610

: 00:31:22

got these two sides and just going

to pelvic floor physical therapy

611

: 00:31:26

is not going to solve the problems.

612

: 00:31:31

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554:

Yeah, great perspective.

613

: 00:31:33

We'll make sure to link those courses

as well in the show notes, so if

614

: 00:31:36

you're interested, you can find

them and, and learn all about it.

615

: 00:31:39

Um, okay.

616

: 00:31:40

This, this kind of makes me

think of like, okay, this is

617

: 00:31:43

what we're experiencing, right?

618

: 00:31:44

If, if you're experiencing pain

and you wanna stop, or if you

619

: 00:31:47

know on this conversation of like,

you're not desiring it because

620

: 00:31:50

it's not ful, like conversations

need to be had with your spouse.

621

: 00:31:54

Like, we need to be talking about it then.

622

: 00:31:56

Um, and so we need to get comfortable

talking about sex and how it's going and

623

: 00:32:01

what you desire or what you don't like.

624

: 00:32:03

So how can couples talk more openly about

intimacy, especially I think when it comes

625

: 00:32:09

to orgasming, it feels a little awkward

to be like, oh, this is what I want.

626

: 00:32:14

Or it could feel shameful or

maybe even selfish to kind of be

627

: 00:32:17

like, this is exactly what I want.

628

: 00:32:19

How, how can couples get more

comfortable talking about it?

629

: 00:32:23

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

Absolutely.

630

: 00:32:23

And this is, yeah, this is definitely

a very difficult topic to talk

631

: 00:32:28

about because it is so vulnerable.

632

: 00:32:30

I mean, we're literally like

633

: 00:32:31

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Mm-hmm.

634

: 00:32:32

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554: up.

635

: 00:32:33

full selves to another human

being who could hurt us, right?

636

: 00:32:38

Like that's, that's what vulnerability

is, is when we're opening up to

637

: 00:32:41

something that could hurt us.

638

: 00:32:43

Um, and they could hurt

639

: 00:32:44

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Mm-hmm.

640

: 00:32:44

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

and your husband probably has hurt

641

: 00:32:46

you before, which is why there's,

like, it can feel like there's just

642

: 00:32:51

this brick wall that you're like, I,

643

: 00:32:54

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Hmm.

644

: 00:32:54

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

I can't, I can't even say the words.

645

: 00:32:56

Um.

646

: 00:32:57

So what I recommend in any

situation is I want you to talk

647

: 00:33:02

about sex every single day.

648

: 00:33:04

I want you to find five

minutes in your calendar.

649

: 00:33:07

Maybe that's first thing in the morning.

650

: 00:33:09

Maybe it's right before you go to bed.

651

: 00:33:10

Maybe it's right when your husband gets

home from work or you get home from work.

652

: 00:33:14

I want you to find five

minutes that you can talk about

653

: 00:33:16

sex, and you're gonna start.

654

: 00:33:19

With only good things, you're gonna start

with only positive things and you're

655

: 00:33:23

just going to get comfortable saying

the words and saying things about sex.

656

: 00:33:30

Um, and that's gonna be so hard and you're

only gonna start with the good things.

657

: 00:33:34

Okay?

658

: 00:33:34

We're only gonna start with, Hey, I, uh.

659

: 00:33:37

I, uh, I kind of, I kind of liked what we

did last night, you know, that's how it's

660

: 00:33:43

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Mm-hmm.

661

: 00:33:43

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

You're gonna, you're gonna try

662

: 00:33:45

to say this simple sentence, and

it's gonna be so hard to say.

663

: 00:33:48

Um, but if we are talking

about sex every single day.

664

: 00:33:52

What that does is it takes the pressure

off of one, initiating a conversation

665

: 00:33:57

about sex because we already know we're

gonna talk about it every single day.

666

: 00:34:02

then the other thing that it does

is once we have gotten a little

667

: 00:34:06

more comfortable and then we start

bringing up the things that we want

668

: 00:34:08

to change, the things that we want

different, the things that we wanna add.

669

: 00:34:13

When we are talking about sex

every single day, we no longer

670

: 00:34:16

are feeling this pressure to get

everything out in one conversation.

671

: 00:34:22

We're able to just have a conversation

about it, step away, think about

672

: 00:34:27

it, think about what our response

to what our husband said is gonna

673

: 00:34:31

be and come back to it the next day.

674

: 00:34:34

Because what happens a lot

with couples when it comes to.

675

: 00:34:38

Conversations about sex is it's like,

it feels like this all or nothing

676

: 00:34:45

instance because we're not talking about

sex and it's not coming and, and then

677

: 00:34:51

like we just, it, we let it boil over.

678

: 00:34:55

And it just becomes this fight where

it's like I have to get everything

679

: 00:34:59

out and your husband feels like he

has to get everything out, and then

680

: 00:35:02

no one's actually communicating.

681

: 00:35:04

Well, no one's actually listening because

it's like, oh my gosh, I have to get this

682

: 00:35:07

out because we're never, we aren't gonna

talk about sex again for six months.

683

: 00:35:11

that is why

684

: 00:35:11

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Mm-hmm.

685

: 00:35:12

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

recommend it every single day.

686

: 00:35:14

Just like put it on the calendar.

687

: 00:35:18

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: That

is great advice and you are so right.

688

: 00:35:21

Difficult conversations like that

when you get to those, whether it's

689

: 00:35:24

about sex or something else, there's

totally that feeling of marriage

690

: 00:35:27

of like, this is my one shot.

691

: 00:35:29

I gotta get it all out because I'm not

gonna get a shot in the next few months.

692

: 00:35:33

And so I'm sure a lot of people can

relate to that and making it more of a

693

: 00:35:36

regular conversation daily, weekly, just

like more part of your natural like.

694

: 00:35:41

Conversations that you have

with your spouse, it's gonna

695

: 00:35:43

decrease that intimidation factor

so much, um, which is so good.

696

: 00:35:47

We wanna be able to talk about

anything with our spouse and be

697

: 00:35:50

able to be comfortable, um, and

have the courage to be vulnerable

698

: 00:35:53

and accept each other and yeah.

699

: 00:35:55

I, I think one really good thing to say

too is like, when you're having these

700

: 00:35:58

conversations, if you need to say it

out loud, like, we can talk about this

701

: 00:36:01

without judgment, you know, and just

kind of put it out there and be like,

702

: 00:36:05

I'm gonna receive you with whatever

you say, and I know that whatever I.

703

: 00:36:07

Say you're not gonna judge it.

704

: 00:36:09

That's just gonna take like some

of that fear out right away,

705

: 00:36:11

which I think is, is necessary.

706

: 00:36:14

Um, okay.

707

: 00:36:15

I know that so many women say that

they rarely orgasm or they never

708

: 00:36:21

orgasm, um, and they feel confused.

709

: 00:36:24

They're like, what if I'm

doing something wrong?

710

: 00:36:26

Or, what if my body is just messed

up and I guess I just don't orgasm

711

: 00:36:31

because my body doesn't work that way?

712

: 00:36:33

What would you say to, to

her and to those concerns?

713

: 00:36:37

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

Absolutely.

714

: 00:36:38

So first off, it is possible

for every female body to orgasm.

715

: 00:36:43

So it's not that there's something

wrong with your body, it's because

716

: 00:36:48

literally no one taught you how, like

it's kind of what I was talking about

717

: 00:36:53

at the very beginning of this episode.

718

: 00:36:55

We are not, you know, our moms

aren't sitting down with us

719

: 00:36:58

and talking to us about orgasm.

720

: 00:37:00

I mean, that like kind of makes

me start blushing if I think about

721

: 00:37:04

having that conversation with my mom.

722

: 00:37:06

To be honest, my mom doesn't

quite understand the full extent

723

: 00:37:09

of my job, so, you know, that's

the level I'm at with my mom.

724

: 00:37:13

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554:

That's great.

725

: 00:37:14

And I don't think my mom listens to

every single one of my podcast episodes,

726

: 00:37:18

so I'm kind of like, just don't mom.

727

: 00:37:20

Not this one.

728

: 00:37:22

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

I don't even think she knows

729

: 00:37:23

the name of my podcast, so I

just keep that one under wraps.

730

: 00:37:27

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: so funny.

731

: 00:37:28

That's so funny.

732

: 00:37:30

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

But like first off, there's

733

: 00:37:32

nothing wrong with you.

734

: 00:37:33

It's simply because you have not

yet learned how, and it is something

735

: 00:37:38

that you have to learn how to do.

736

: 00:37:41

It can feel unfair, and I fully recognize

that it feels totally unfair because

737

: 00:37:47

men don't really have to learn how

to orgasm, and that is because their

738

: 00:37:52

orgasm is inherently connected to.

739

: 00:37:55

The proative aspect of sex, their orgasm

happens alongside of ejaculation and like.

740

: 00:38:04

Intercourse is the thing that stimulates

the penis to ejaculation and orgasm.

741

: 00:38:14

That's not always the case for women.

742

: 00:38:17

Our, the clitoral structure kind

of, it's mostly under the, uh.

743

: 00:38:23

Sorry, it's mostly internal.

744

: 00:38:26

Under the skin, I guess is

what I was trying to say,

745

: 00:38:28

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Mm-hmm.

746

: 00:38:29

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554: it

fills up with blood and then is stimulated

747

: 00:38:34

kind of all over the vulva area.

748

: 00:38:36

And so just intercourse isn't

necessarily going to be enough

749

: 00:38:41

to stimulate a woman to orgasm.

750

: 00:38:43

So there's, there's a lot of.

751

: 00:38:45

Areas that you can touch.

752

: 00:38:46

Um, I really recommend like a lot

of manual or oral simulation prior

753

: 00:38:50

to intercourse or even bringing

the woman to orgasm prior to

754

: 00:38:55

intercourse that is fully licit.

755

: 00:38:58

Uh, the sexual pleasure is designed

for the sexual act, so, so long

756

: 00:39:04

as sexual pleasure is within.

757

: 00:39:06

That sexual act, right?

758

: 00:39:07

So if it's immediately prior to

intercourse, that is within the moral

759

: 00:39:12

bounds of the purpose of sexual pleasure.

760

: 00:39:15

Now, the same doesn't go for

the man because his orgasm is

761

: 00:39:20

connected to that proative part.

762

: 00:39:22

So his orgasm does have to

happen during intercourse.

763

: 00:39:26

The woman's orgasm is separate

from that proative part, right?

764

: 00:39:29

The proative part happens like

just in inside, and it actually

765

: 00:39:33

kinda happens after sex, uh, for

766

: 00:39:35

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: True.

767

: 00:39:36

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

But, and, and so it's very interesting

768

: 00:39:38

that it's separated and that shows

us how important it is because.

769

: 00:39:44

God separated it into

two different things.

770

: 00:39:46

We have this pleasure aspect and

this procreative aspect, so we can

771

: 00:39:49

see, oh, these are two separate

things that are very important.

772

: 00:39:52

Whereas with the man, they are

connected and that also shows us

773

: 00:39:55

how important they are because it's

two separate things that happen.

774

: 00:39:59

And so God is saying, look, it's

important for this pleasure to

775

: 00:40:02

happen and it's important for us to

recognize they are two separate things.

776

: 00:40:06

The Proative aspect and the pleasure

aspect and this pleasure aspect is

777

: 00:40:09

actually really connected to the unitive.

778

: 00:40:13

Aspect of sex.

779

: 00:40:14

And in Humana, Vita Pope Paul

the sixth, defined for us the

780

: 00:40:17

inseparability principle of the

proative and unitive aspects of sex

781

: 00:40:23

in that we cannot separate them.

782

: 00:40:25

We need to, have them be

783

: 00:40:27

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Hmm.

784

: 00:40:28

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

For sex to be the full sexual act.

785

: 00:40:30

We can't take away this unitive aspect.

786

: 00:40:32

We can't take away this proative aspect.

787

: 00:40:34

So sexual pleasure is a part of that

unitive aspect, and, and it is an

788

: 00:40:40

important part of that unitive aspect.

789

: 00:40:42

So basically orgasm very important.

790

: 00:40:46

I want you to, to reach for orgasm.

791

: 00:40:50

It's important to aim for that.

792

: 00:40:53

It's gonna take some trial and error,

it's gonna take a lot of communication.

793

: 00:40:57

It's gonna take where sex

was not pleasurable at all.

794

: 00:41:00

And you'd be like, okay,

well don't do that again.

795

: 00:41:02

That didn't work.

796

: 00:41:03

Um, and it's gonna be times where you get

really close and then your brain gets in

797

: 00:41:08

the way and, or, you know, a dog jumps

on the bed or something happens, right?

798

: 00:41:13

And you're like, ah, no, I was so close.

799

: 00:41:15

Like.

800

: 00:41:16

It's gonna take time to learn it.

801

: 00:41:18

If we think about like a toddler

who's learning to walk, he stands up,

802

: 00:41:23

he like takes a step and falls down.

803

: 00:41:25

If he stopped there,

he'd never learn to walk.

804

: 00:41:30

He just keeps going.

805

: 00:41:31

I have a one-year-old right now

who is like, he's trying to do

806

: 00:41:34

this and he just continues to fail.

807

: 00:41:36

He has been failing for weeks

and weeks and weeks at walking

808

: 00:41:40

and he's not gonna stop.

809

: 00:41:41

And I don't want you to stop either.

810

: 00:41:43

I want you to think about that toddler

and say, yeah, you know what, I'm

811

: 00:41:46

learning to walk or I'm learning to

orgasm is what your, your statement is

812

: 00:41:50

and you're just gonna keep trying and.

813

: 00:41:53

you to also manage those thoughts

that are happening in your brain

814

: 00:41:56

because when you tell yourself, oh,

I'm just not someone who orgasms,

815

: 00:42:00

or, this is just not possible for me.

816

: 00:42:03

are gonna become true

statements if you tell yourself

817

: 00:42:06

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Hmm.

818

: 00:42:07

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

So instead, I want you to replace

819

: 00:42:08

those with I am learning to orgasm,

I am learning to receive pleasure.

820

: 00:42:14

I'm, I'm learning about my body.

821

: 00:42:17

Like, just allow it to be a

learning experience and that's

822

: 00:42:20

gonna open up a whole world of it.

823

: 00:42:22

And if you really wanna dive in,

if you want me to like basically

824

: 00:42:25

guide you step by step, I do have

that orgasm course for Catholic

825

: 00:42:28

women that I created, which is just.

826

: 00:42:30

All about orgasms and it's the how

to that your mom never sat down with

827

: 00:42:34

you and taught you how to orgasm.

828

: 00:42:35

And it's okay.

829

: 00:42:36

'cause I don't know if any of us

really want our mom to sit down

830

: 00:42:38

with us and teach us how to orgasm,

831

: 00:42:42

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554:

That's so funny and, and so true.

832

: 00:42:44

We're like, this needs to be

talked about, but not by my mom.

833

: 00:42:47

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

but not by my mom.

834

: 00:42:48

No, not by my mom.

835

: 00:42:49

And probably not by your sister.

836

: 00:42:50

I don't know.

837

: 00:42:51

Like not the relationship

I have with my sister.

838

: 00:42:53

Like I don't really want her to

teach me how to orgasm either.

839

: 00:42:57

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Fair.

840

: 00:42:58

Very fair.

841

: 00:42:59

I think one thing that comes to mind

is just how, like before you get

842

: 00:43:03

married, you know, and you mentioned

movies and tv, you have this idea of

843

: 00:43:07

just like what sex is gonna be like,

and you see it on the screen and it's

844

: 00:43:10

just, you just look at each other

and it just like happens and it's so

845

: 00:43:12

passionate and it just like never stops.

846

: 00:43:14

And I feel like as, um, yeah, like a young

woman like you kind of, uh, conversations

847

: 00:43:19

I had with my friends, I'm like, yeah,

like once you have sex, then it's

848

: 00:43:21

just like, it never stops and you just

probably are having sex like all the time.

849

: 00:43:24

You just like have this

like thought right.

850

: 00:43:26

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554: Right.

851

: 00:43:26

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554:

then you like get married

852

: 00:43:27

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

Multiple times a day,

853

: 00:43:28

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Yeah.

854

: 00:43:29

Every day.

855

: 00:43:30

Multiple times a day.

856

: 00:43:30

And it's like the best thing ever.

857

: 00:43:32

And it never stops.

858

: 00:43:33

And then you get married and you talk

to the married women and you start

859

: 00:43:37

experiencing it and you're like, okay.

860

: 00:43:38

I mean, that was great, but like I.

861

: 00:43:40

What are other people doing?

862

: 00:43:41

And like, are other people like kind

of like going through a dry spell or

863

: 00:43:45

like, why aren't we doing it every day?

864

: 00:43:47

Or, you know, and, um, yeah, I think

people, you know, it'd be good to, to

865

: 00:43:52

dive into like if couples are feeling

kind of stuck or out of a very, like,

866

: 00:43:57

passionate like time in their marriage

and they feel kinda like they're falling

867

: 00:44:01

flat and intimacy's falling flat.

868

: 00:44:03

How can couples kind of break out of that?

869

: 00:44:06

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554: Yeah.

870

: 00:44:06

So there's two things that

I wanna recommend here.

871

: 00:44:09

One is recognize that like initiating

sex takes vulnerability and bravery.

872

: 00:44:17

And it's okay if like.

873

: 00:44:21

You're nervous about initiating sex?

874

: 00:44:24

I was actually just in a Facebook

group for like Catholic women and

875

: 00:44:27

this woman was like, oh my gosh, I

had a baby nine months ago and my

876

: 00:44:32

husband and I still haven't had sex.

877

: 00:44:34

I don't know how to, how

to get this going again.

878

: 00:44:38

And I wanted to just like pick her

up and give her a hug and just say.

879

: 00:44:43

Hun, it's okay this is scary.

880

: 00:44:46

Like, opening yourself up to another

person in the most vulnerable way that two

881

: 00:44:53

human beings on earth can do really scary.

882

: 00:44:59

so just like sometimes just the

recognition that it's gonna take

883

: 00:45:03

bravery to get out of that dry

spell, sometimes that's all we need.

884

: 00:45:08

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Mm-hmm.

885

: 00:45:09

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

other little piece of advice that

886

: 00:45:11

I like to recommend is if you're

looking at your marriage and you're

887

: 00:45:14

like, man, I just wish, I wish I was

that wife, that sexual wife, right?

888

: 00:45:21

Like, and, and not in a bad way, right?

889

: 00:45:22

I, I wish I was like that wife

that wanted to have sex and that

890

: 00:45:26

wife that initiated and that wife

891

: 00:45:28

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Hm.

892

: 00:45:28

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

wore lingerie under my normal clothes

893

: 00:45:30

and then surprised my husband.

894

: 00:45:32

I wish I was that wife.

895

: 00:45:34

Guess what?

896

: 00:45:36

You're not her right now.

897

: 00:45:38

But you can do the things

that she does, right?

898

: 00:45:44

You are fully allowed to do those things

even if you don't feel like her yet.

899

: 00:45:49

So you can wear lingerie

under your regular clothes.

900

: 00:45:53

You can like think about her, think

about that future that you wanna be.

901

: 00:46:00

What does she do?

902

: 00:46:02

During the day, how does

she wash the dishes?

903

: 00:46:05

How does she dance to music?

904

: 00:46:07

How is she moving her body

when she walks up the stairs?

905

: 00:46:11

And is it different than yours?

906

: 00:46:12

And you can do that too.

907

: 00:46:14

You're allowed to like move your body

differently when you dance and like.

908

: 00:46:19

That's gonna awaken this person in you

that is fully like, it's, she is fully

909

: 00:46:26

you, this future you that you wanna be.

910

: 00:46:28

And she's also fully like allowed.

911

: 00:46:32

I, I think sometimes again, that purity

culture kind of gets us and we're like,

912

: 00:46:35

I'm not allowed to be this like sexual

woman who like dances in front of my

913

: 00:46:40

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Mm-hmm.

914

: 00:46:41

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

not allowed to do that.

915

: 00:46:42

You totally are.

916

: 00:46:44

And that is.

917

: 00:46:45

Completely a chaste way to interact

within marriage, like within marriage.

918

: 00:46:52

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Mm-hmm.

919

: 00:46:52

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

looks so different than it

920

: 00:46:54

did before marriage and.

921

: 00:46:56

Marriage sex is encouraged and expected,

and so therefore, there are so many

922

: 00:47:02

other ways of, you know, showing off

yourself and being yourself that are fully

923

: 00:47:08

allowed in marriage, and you can just,

like, you can just decide to be her or

924

: 00:47:13

decide to do the things that she does.

925

: 00:47:18

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554:

That was so good.

926

: 00:47:19

I love that.

927

: 00:47:20

I love that.

928

: 00:47:20

Just like that future.

929

: 00:47:21

You, you can be that future you, and

you're allowed to, people need to hear

930

: 00:47:25

that like they have permission, right?

931

: 00:47:26

Like you're married,

chastity looks different.

932

: 00:47:29

Yeah.

933

: 00:47:29

So many good, um, gold, gold nuggets

that you had in that message.

934

: 00:47:33

Um.

935

: 00:47:34

To wrap it up, if you could tell

every Catholic couple one truth

936

: 00:47:39

that would change the way they

see sex forever, what would it be?

937

: 00:47:42

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

having sex teaches you how to

938

: 00:47:46

have a relationship with God.

939

: 00:47:49

Sex is a way that we unite

with another person and.

940

: 00:47:58

That intimacy with another person

teaches us how to have intimacy with God.

941

: 00:48:07

One way of explaining the

Trinity is that God the father.

942

: 00:48:11

Is initiating love to God the son and

God the son receives that love fully.

943

: 00:48:17

And in his receiving that love, he

gives his love back to the father.

944

: 00:48:21

And the Father

945

: 00:48:22

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Mm-hmm.

946

: 00:48:23

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

that love fully and, and gives

947

: 00:48:25

it again back to the Son.

948

: 00:48:26

And the Holy Spirit is that love

that is circulating between the two.

949

: 00:48:32

Your marriage.

950

: 00:48:34

One way that marriage actually teaches

us about the Trinity is in sex.

951

: 00:48:39

In sex.

952

: 00:48:40

The man is kind of in the image

of the father in that he initiates

953

: 00:48:44

the gift and we look biologically.

954

: 00:48:46

He literally initiates this

gift of himself into the woman.

955

: 00:48:49

The woman receives that gift.

956

: 00:48:52

Of the man I'm talking about the sperm.

957

: 00:48:54

Like literally a part of him.

958

: 00:48:57

She receives that part of him into her.

959

: 00:48:59

And in receiving him, she

is becoming a gift to him in

960

: 00:49:05

receiving him into her body.

961

: 00:49:08

Like that is her becoming gift.

962

: 00:49:10

And then the husband receives that

gift of his wife and and gives more

963

: 00:49:15

fully, and we have this cycle here

that we see the same exact cycle.

964

: 00:49:19

Right?

965

: 00:49:19

And then sometimes.

966

: 00:49:21

That, that reception, that cycle of

giving results in a third person.

967

: 00:49:27

And there we have this like very

delicate and interesting and

968

: 00:49:33

vulnerable way of seeing the trinity.

969

: 00:49:36

I think that

970

: 00:49:37

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Mm-hmm.

971

: 00:49:37

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

married couples understood just how deep

972

: 00:49:41

and how unitive and how beautiful sex

is that like it teaches us how to pray.

973

: 00:49:48

It teaches us how to be

in relationship with God.

974

: 00:49:51

And That's so cool.

975

: 00:49:54

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Yeah.

976

: 00:49:54

That's so cool.

977

: 00:49:55

I I, the first time I ever heard that

analogy like totally blew my mind.

978

: 00:49:59

Um, Ellen, thank you for sharing just

so openly, so honestly, so vulnerably.

979

: 00:50:04

I know like, as women, we need

to hear from other women so

980

: 00:50:07

openly to be able to Yeah.

981

: 00:50:09

Like really dive into these conversations.

982

: 00:50:11

Where can we learn more

of you and where Yeah.

983

: 00:50:14

How can we find you?

984

: 00:50:16

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

Absolutely.

985

: 00:50:16

So I have, my podcast is called

Charting Toward Intimacy.

986

: 00:50:20

It's toward without an S,

so charting toward intimacy.

987

: 00:50:24

Um, and I'm on Instagram at

charting toward Intimacy as well.

988

: 00:50:28

And all of my courses and coaching can

be found at Vines in full bloom.com.

989

: 00:50:35

mari-wagner_2_09-26-2025_134554: Amazing.

990

: 00:50:36

We'll make sure to link that all

in the show notes, and I highly

991

: 00:50:38

recommend all you married women.

992

: 00:50:40

Go check her out.

993

: 00:50:42

ellen-holloway_2_09-26-2025_124554:

Thanks so much.