Episode 49

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Published on:

26th Feb 2025

49: A Therapist's Guide to Woundedness and Healing in Marriage | Dr. Bob Schuchts

Join host Mari Wagner and Dr. Bob Schuetz, founder of the John Paul II Healing Center. In this episode as they discuss the profound themes of woundedness and healing within marriage. Dr. Bob shares his extensive experience as a marital therapist and conference speaker, offering wisdom on common marital wounds, the crucial role of forgiveness, and practical steps toward reconciling deep hurts. They explore topics like prayer, vulnerability, and how to rebuild trust in relationships. Perfect for anyone seeking to deepen their understanding and approach to a Christ-centered marriage.

Dr. Bob Schuchts Links

JPII Healing Center

Restore the Glory Podcast

Be Healed Book

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Transcript
Speaker:

Hey guys, today is an amazing

episode, and I just want to give our

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speaker a proper introduction because

it was such an honor to have Dr.

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Bob Schuetz on the podcast today.

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You're going to learn so much from him.

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In case you don't know about Dr.

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Bob Schuetz, he is the founder.

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of the John Paul the Second Healing

Center, where he and his team

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provide healing and equipping

conferences for married couples,

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clergy, religious and lay leaders.

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Bob has been serving married couples

for the past 40 years as a marital

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therapist and conference speaker.

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and Jake Kim also hosts a popular

podcast called restore the glory And he

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is an author of several popular books

including be healed be transformed

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to be devoted And real suffering.

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These are amazing resources for

anybody wanting to learn more

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about woundedness and healing.

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And today's episode is just packed with

amazing advice and wisdom, especially in

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the topic of and woundedness in marriage.

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So, I hope you enjoy.

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Let's get started.

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Hey, I'm your host, Mari Wagner,

and you're listening to the ever be

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podcast where faith meets lifestyle.

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I'm so excited you're here, whether you're

a new listener or a longtime follower,

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I know there's something here for you.

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Pull up a chair and listen in for

insightful real life conversations and

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actionable steps on how to claim the.

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full life God created you for.

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If you're a woman desiring to live

a Christ centered life in today's

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modern world, then this is for you.

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Welcome to the EverBeat podcast.

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Mari Wagner: Hello, everybody.

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Welcome back to ever be today.

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We have a wonderful guest, Dr.

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Bob Schutes.

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You may have heard of him before, and

it is such an honor to be able to sit

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down with you today, Bob, and just chat

about marriage, the beauty of it and

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the reality that we all have wounds

We all come in with woundedness and

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those things come up in our marriage.

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And so we're going to chat today about

how to identify those, maybe how to

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begin a healing process, how to support

each other in our marriages, um, as

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we go through, through healing and

discovering just more about ourselves.

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Thank you so much for taking the time

to chat with me today about this.

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Um, can you give us a little bit

of an introduction of who you are?

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Um, and maybe how you even

got into this line of work.

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Bob Schuchts: Well, first

of all, thanks Mari.

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It's great to be with you and thank

you for all you're doing in terms of

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spreading the message and communication,

uh, integrating the faith with life.

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Mari Wagner: Yeah.

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

Well, uh, I'm, I'm Bob Schutz.

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I'm, right now I have been widowed,

widower for the last eight years, but we

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were married, Margie and I were married

for 42 years, and we have two daughters.

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And 11 grandchildren.

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And I'm grateful.

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I'm grateful that the, my daughters

and their husbands and my grandchildren

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live, uh, nearby, uh, except for

the three oldest who are graduated

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and off to college or beyond.

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Um, so they're, they're

part of my life every day.

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And, uh, it's been just a

real gift to have family here.

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I also have brother and sister

in town and their families.

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And uh, so family is very important,

and it's been important for a long time.

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I, some of how I got involved in family

ministry is I was, uh, we had, we had a

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very solid Catholic family, it seemed.

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Until, uh, things fell apart

between my mom and my dad.

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And I look back and I see how

my passion for marriage was

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formed in that brokenness.

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And I remember being in high

school, at Chaminade High School

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in South Florida at the time.

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And the priest was teaching about

a course on religion and family.

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Uh, religion and psychology, but it was

particularly focused on marriage and

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family, and I just remember my heart

coming alive as I saw those two things

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come together, and so that's Where the

spark came for this as a profession,

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uh, I went to graduate school, I went to

college and didn't really have that kind

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of emphasis, and it was when I was in

graduate school that in a marriage and

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family program that I began to see the

possibility, and I didn't know whether

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I was going to be a therapist or a

teacher of marriage and family, and it

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turned out there was both, so I spent.

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Uh, 35, 38 years, uh, teaching marriage

and family in different settings and also

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being a marriage and family therapist,

which meant involving not just couples,

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but families and individuals and then,

uh, started the John Paul II Healing

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Center, which is what we're doing now.

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And, uh, so we, we, among other

things, we provide marriage conferences

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for couples, for married couples.

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I think that's how you got connected,

right, is through a marriage conference?

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Yes.

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Mari Wagner: Well, a few of a

few of your retreats I was first.

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I mean, I had heard about, um,

yeah, the ministry of that.

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I was a focus missionary

at Lincoln, Nebraska.

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And

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: Ah,

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Mari Wagner: I think it's

your your brother Bart.

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

Yep, that's my brother Bart.

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Yeah.

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Mari Wagner: Bart came to Lincoln and

he did kind of like a Holy Spirit,

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um, workshop with us and our students.

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And then shortly after, or maybe it

was a few months after something was

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when I attended the undone retreat in

Washington, back in my home parish.

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And then last

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

Or it was my daughter Carrie.

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That was my daughter Carrie.

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Mari Wagner: I met your daughter,

Carrie, and then about a year and a

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half ago, my husband and I went to

Unveiled, which was held in Colorado.

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

Oh, okay.

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Mari Wagner: and I know y'all are coming

back out here soon, so we're excited.

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We have a lot of friends

that are going to that.

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But I've also, you know, you're

an author and Be Healed is a very

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popular book in the Catholic world.

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So I've heard a lot

about that one as well.

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I haven't read it yet.

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To be honest, I'm a little

intimidated to read it.

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People have told me, like,

gotta be ready to dive in.

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Um, so it's definitely on my reading list.

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Um, but can you tell us a little bit

about, just quickly about that book?

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: About

Be Healed, yeah, it's really interesting

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because I was writing a textbook for

marriage and family about 40 years ago,

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and a woman walked in, never met her,

and she said, are you writing a book?

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And I said, yeah, how did you know?

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She said, well, I didn't know,

God told me on the way over here.

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And I was like, wow, God knows, you know,

obviously God knows, but he revealed it.

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And then, then I got deflated.

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Then she said, God said, you're writing

that for yourself and not for him.

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And he's called, and

he's called you to write.

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Uh, and so I just let it go.

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And it was really about 30 years

before Be Healed was written.

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And so it was, uh, actually the

Ave Maria Press reached out to me.

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I was already, Discerning, we were

teaching the Healing the Whole Person

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conferences, and they reached out and

they asked me if I would publish a

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book, and uh, then I knew it was time.

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There was a lot of other

factors, but I knew it was time.

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And it's really focused

on, uh, three parts.

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One is who Jesus is.

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You know, the very beginning is focusing

on the person of Jesus as healer, and that

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everything he does and teaches is healing.

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And then the second part is on our

woundedness, our brokenness, and our

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perspective of us as whole persons.

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And then the third part is on the

healing journey through redemptive

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suffering and sacraments and prayer.

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And, uh, I tell a lot of my family story.

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Uh, through the book also, so there's

really powerful, beautiful stories.

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Mari Wagner: Beautiful.

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Well, I'm excited to dive

into our conversation.

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Let's just Jump right in.

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Uh, my first question for you would

be you could share, maybe some, what

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are some of the most common wounds or

areas of hurt that you see in marriages?

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: Yeah,

actually, in marriage, there's hurts

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that are before marriage that are brought

into the marriage, and then there are

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ways that couples hurt each other, and

it can be betrayal, rejection, uh, ways

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of, uh, feeling abandoned, all that.

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But even deeper than that are

the, kind of the universal wounds.

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That men and women have from the fall,

you know, and if you study this, this, uh,

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really got focused through John and Stacey

Eldridge and their book, Captivating, uh,

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where they talked a lot about this, but,

um, we, we incorporated into our marriage

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conference and it's, if you look at it,

What Adam and Eve were called to do and

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then the curses that came, you know The

curses for Adam was related to his work

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and the curses for Eve were related to

family children and children and spouse

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and so the Eldritches developed this

Understanding that because of the toil

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both of them toil both of them Labor

now because of the fall because grace

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is missing and so the man labors in his

work You And the wound is inadequacy,

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Mari Wagner: Mm.

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: right?

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There's a sense of whatever it is

I'm called to do, I can't do it well

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enough because the grace is missing.

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Mari Wagner: Yes.

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

And for the woman, it's relational.

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It's regarding husband and

children because she's there

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as a relational creation.

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Work is secondary for her.

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Not that she doesn't work just

as much or more as the man, but

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it's secondary to her identity.

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And,

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Mari Wagner: Yeah.

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: and so a

lot of times men and women miss each other

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from those two different perspectives.

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And you know, a typical conversation

might be, uh, a woman being more aware

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of the loneliness in the relationship.

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And she goes to her husband and says, uh,

I feel like you're neglecting you, me.

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I feel like you're not really in

tune with me right now, or the kids.

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Mari Wagner: Right.

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Yeah.

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Like there's like expressing a disconnect.

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Like women are more aware of those.

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Yeah.

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Of those emotions.

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: Yep.

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And so the husband, being more aware of

his own, coming from his own woundedness

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and his own orientation, hears that

as you're not doing it good enough,

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Mari Wagner: Ah, yes.

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

Which taps right into his inadequacy.

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Mari Wagner: There it

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: And

now we're, now the dance starts, because,

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because now it becomes defensiveness

and more disconnection, rather

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than hearing the heart of his wife.

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And the wife now feels more Disconnected.

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More hurt.

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It usually ramps it up in terms of her

upset, which then increases more of a

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sense of inadequacy, and then now the

disconnection has really escalated and

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the inadequacy has really escalated.

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So I think that's a dynamic that I

saw a lot in my marriage therapy,

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where we'd just miss each other,

and I saw it also in my marriage.

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We'd just miss each other because

our orientations were different,

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our wounds were different.

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Those wounds kind of invisibly

playing out with any of, without

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any of us knowing really that

we're living from our woundedness

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rather than from the conversation.

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Mari Wagner: Totally.

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I mean, just hearing that, that was, I

know, like step one, just like the basics,

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but I'm sure so many couples listening

to this are just chuckling to themselves.

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Like, oh, yeah, we've had that

conversation before, you know,

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totally heard my wife say that.

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I've said that or I've, I've

totally been the one to say that.

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And it does give you a little bit

of, um, a little bit of empathy and

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understanding for your spouse to kind

of hear like, where is this rooted in?

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Where did this come from?

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Or, you know, as a woman, when you do

say like, Hey, there's a disconnect

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and husband replies like, Whoa, I'm,

you know, I'm trying my best, you

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know, I'm, I'm doing everything I can.

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You kind of get to see like, wow, it's

really coming from this core place of,

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yeah, of inadequacy or this core place of

there being a break in that relationship.

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So that's really good insight.

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Um, What if couples don't have the

language, you know, to identify this?

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What if they've never heard these terms

like inadequacy, like, you know, or

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woundedness, how can couples begin to

identify and name wounds in themselves

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or in their marriage if they're not

maybe immediately obvious to them?

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Mm.

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

It's part of the reason for writing

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be healed and, and be devoted is to

give language, you know, because I

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think that's where we all struggle.

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We we're kind of blindsided by

these things without, without

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being a name, name them.

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And again, going back to Genesis, right

away, God invited Adam to name things.

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You know, to name the animals, to do that.

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And there's something about naming

that gives us some sense of,

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not only awareness, but ability

to, to deal with those things.

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Um, so a couple that doesn't have this

language, I think there's an intuitive

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knowledge that something's not okay.

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And it's, and it's that struggle,

and I think the thing that's most

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important is that there be, uh, an

ability to look out for the other's

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interest, as the scripture says.

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You know, to be able to see

things from the lens of the other,

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which is what communication is.

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Communication is the process of becoming

one, is being able to share my reality.

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My perception of reality, and you being

able to share your perception of reality,

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and then to find a language together

that we can understand with each other.

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Mari Wagner: Yeah, totally.

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Cause I do.

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And I remember this, that kind of

reminds me of a, an exercise we

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did at the unveiled retreat where

we practiced a thought or concern.

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Right.

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And then your spouse repeating it

back to you to kind of, yeah, find

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that common ground of like, we're

speaking the same language, like

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we're understanding each other.

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And I, I found that to be helpful.

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Um, I still feel like, you know, what

would your advice to couples be if

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they're like, I know there is healing

that is needed, but I don't even

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know what's causing me to feel this

way or where things are coming from.

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How can they maybe begin that process

or begin to kind of name things if

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they're just kind of like, I don't

even know, you know, where to start.

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

Yeah, and even though the man can

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be the one, it's often the woman's

intuition, the woman's sensitivity to the

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relationship that begins to explore that.

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I would say the first step is prayer.

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Uh, just to Before you go to your spouse,

go to the Lord and say, Okay, I'm having

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a hard time identifying what's wrong here,

but I can feel something's not right.

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And so will you let me know?

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And in that prayer, then

be aware of your own heart.

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And what's really important, and it's

so natural to do the opposite, but

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what's really important is that we

don't blame our spouse, but we begin to

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examine what's going on inside of us.

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You know, right from the very beginning,

if you remember, again, going back to the

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book of Genesis, God comes to look for

Adam and Eve so that they can express and

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be reconciled to him and to each other.

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Instead, they start blaming

each other, uh, and that blame

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leaves them more alienated

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Mari Wagner: Yeah.

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: and

more disconnected and more ashamed, uh,

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and so it's so important that we pray

to identify and then share it in a way

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that's sharing our experience rather than

blaming or projecting it onto our spouse.

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Mari Wagner: Mm.

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That's so good.

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I guess that kind of brings me to my

next question too, as you know, marriage

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is two individuals coming together and

two broken individuals coming together.

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Um, and so they're just.

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You know, there's a lot of

brokenness in each of our hearts.

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And as you come together,

that begins to come out.

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And, and sometimes, uh, you know,

within the marriage, husbands and

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wives can kind of contribute to

that woundedness or that hurt.

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How do you feel like husbands and

wives are contributing to this?

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And then how can we kind of be

aware of that and then begin to

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support the healing instead of

yeah, contributing to the wound.

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

Yeah, those are big questions, uh, and

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Make all the difference in a marriage.

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Uh,

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Mari Wagner: absolutely.

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

so let me just first identify,

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as you talk about brokenness, I

think of three kinds of brokenness.

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One is our sin, right, our personal

sin that has wounded ourselves

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through the course of our life.

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And then that sin also wounds our spouse.

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So we need to become aware of and

confess our sins regularly and be

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willing to grow in holiness, grow

in, you know, overcoming those sins.

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The second is the basic selfishness

that's part of fallen human nature.

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You know, that we're much more aware of

what we need than what our spouse needs.

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And we're much more likely to

fight tooth and nail to get what we

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want than to fight tooth and nail

to get, give you what you want.

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It doesn't mean that's exclusive,

but that's our, that's part of our

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brokenness is that basic selfishness.

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And then it's all the wounds that we've

experienced, you know, because every

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time we're not loved well throughout

our whole life, we develop wounds,

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whether we're aware of it or not.

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And all of that becomes part of the stew,

if you will, uh, of marriage relationship.

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And so, becoming aware of that internally

and with each other, just acknowledging

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that, you know, we're two sinners.

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We're more than sinners, but we're two

people who hurt each other through sin.

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We're two people who have a propensity

to be selfish, and we're two people with

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wounds, and Again, as a man, it took

me a while, even though I had pretty

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serious wounds, it took me a while to

come to a recognition that I had wounds.

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And

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Mari Wagner: Mm.

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: in

pride, I wanted to deny, you know,

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Mari Wagner: Mm hmm.

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

my spouse's sins are obvious

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to me, but mine aren't.

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Uh,

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Mari Wagner: Yeah.

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

and my spouse's selfishness is.

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It's evident to me, but mine isn't,

you know, and, and so it's that growth

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and humility and awareness, and then

from there taking responsibility.

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And we talk a lot in our marriage

conference about what a healthy process

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of forgiveness looks like and what

a healthy process of reconciliation

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and rebuilding trust looks like.

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And so I think those skills

are really important once we

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become aware of those areas.

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Mari Wagner: Yeah.

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Talk to me more about forgiveness.

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I think that's hard for a lot of us, um,

both in the area of those who have hurt

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us, as well as asking for forgiveness.

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Um, how can couples practice?

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Forgiveness more in a genuine way, or

how can you, what would you like to,

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you know, to speak into in this area of

forgiveness and how this can really be

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a pivotal part of the healing process?

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bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: Yeah, it

is so crucial, and sometimes forgiveness

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is a daily thing in marriage if there's

an annoying habit or pattern of behavior

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that continues on, and sometimes it's

just something big that's happened

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that we haven't gotten over yet, uh,

but in either case, um, I think people

344

:

need to start and begin to look at the

consequences of not forgiving so that

345

:

they recognize the motivation to forgive.

346

:

So, and again, this is

from the Scriptures.

347

:

What happens When we don't forgive,

is we form a judgment of the other

348

:

person, and we harden our hearts.

349

:

Bitterness develops.

350

:

Resentment.

351

:

Right?

352

:

So all of a sudden, the capacity to

give and receive love and trust has

353

:

been interfered with at some level,

either at a really large level, if

354

:

it's a big betrayal, or at a small

level if it's a little betrayal, but,

355

:

but it's like the difference between a

venial sin and a mortal sin, you know,

356

:

sometimes these broken areas of trust

can really shatter You know, like an

357

:

infidelity, uh, or somebody going and

spending, you know, all kind of money

358

:

without the consent of the other spouse.

359

:

That would also be a betrayal.

360

:

These are all situations I ran

into in marriage counseling.

361

:

And when, when those are present,

we can't just get over the issue.

362

:

You know, there's a, there's a big healing

process, but it begins with working

363

:

towards what's happened and naming the

consequences of what's happened before

364

:

we even start to forgive and then moving

from there into the process of forgiving.

365

:

As we talk about it, there's a whole

lot involved in that forgiveness.

366

:

It's letting go of the judgments.

367

:

It's letting go of the wounds that

I've experienced from it and the

368

:

identity that I've taken in from that.

369

:

And it's also recognizing that

both of us have hurt each other.

370

:

Even if one person has hurt

the other, we've both hurt each

371

:

other, and it's unfaithful.

372

:

Not just to be in adultery, but

it's unfaithful to be judging

373

:

and rejecting our spouse who we

promise to love and cherish, right?

374

:

So there's coming together in humility

as two sinners, as two people who

375

:

have brokenness and two wounds, to

really repair the real damage that's

376

:

been done, but The forgiveness then

being a process, and I would often see

377

:

in the marriage counseling, it would

take a year or two for that to happen.

378

:

So, a lot of times, one spouse having a

major offense wants to be forgiven and

379

:

then just forget about it, and that's

unrealistic, because trust has to be

380

:

restored, and that's the other part of

the process is, how do you restore trust?

381

:

And it's by a change in behavior, but also

over time, that behavior being trusted,

382

:

and then it's accountability, and it's a

recognition to the depth of the hurt that.

383

:

we've caused to the other.

384

:

Uh, and so that's true also in littler

issues, but we can go along with the

385

:

littler issues and ignore them and not

realize that our hearts are starting

386

:

to harden and we're pulling back and

we're, we're holding on to things.

387

:

Mari Wagner: Yeah, no, absolutely.

388

:

You mentioned, um, you know, this

phrase like forgive and forget.

389

:

I feel like that's something

you grew up hearing sometimes.

390

:

And, uh, I'd love to just kind of

hear like, what is your take on that?

391

:

Do you feel that that is a

healthy practice or you're like,

392

:

that's just not real, you know?

393

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: I will,

I will stand on the official teaching of

394

:

the church where it says, uh, It is not

possible to forgive and forget an offense.

395

:

Uh, we do not forget.

396

:

It may be less conscious to us after

we've, uh, forgiven, and we may not

397

:

bring it up again, but we don't.

398

:

Like, if we're offended until it's

healed, we're not gonna let it go.

399

:

It's gonna be in our

consciousness the whole time.

400

:

Uh,

401

:

Mari Wagner: absolutely.

402

:

Yeah.

403

:

in terms of rebuilding trust, what are.

404

:

What are some ways that you can

kind of rebuild trust with your

405

:

spouse if it has been broken?

406

:

Are there any like little things we can

be doing or is it just really about,

407

:

you know, being honest in all ways?

408

:

Or do you, do you have any advice in,

in the realm of like rebuilding trust?

409

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: Yeah, so

trust has to do with two primary things.

410

:

It has to do with truth.

411

:

And love, right?

412

:

Am I being honest with you, or

am I withholding things from you?

413

:

If I'm honest with you, and I'm honest

with you in love, not in brutality,

414

:

but if I'm honest with you in love,

and you can trust my word to be true

415

:

because my behavior is consistent with

that word, then trust will develop.

416

:

But if I'm either dishonest, or if I'm

saying things that I'm not living, then

417

:

naturally the trust is going to be broken.

418

:

Uh, so.

419

:

That's on one hand.

420

:

The second is on love, and so we're

wounded by offenses against love,

421

:

whether they're neglect or, uh,

More direct kinds of woundings.

422

:

And so we can't rebuild trust

unless that love wound is repaired.

423

:

And how is that repaired?

424

:

By consistent behavior of

overcoming what we did before.

425

:

And it's natural for people to not trust.

426

:

And I would say each of us will trust

our spouse to the extent to which each of

427

:

us has a close relationship with Jesus.

428

:

An authentically close

relationship with Jesus.

429

:

It's because to live In communion with

Jesus is to live in love and truth.

430

:

And, and without that, if one spouse

has a deeper, uh, intimacy with Jesus

431

:

than the other, very likely that

person is going to be more trustworthy

432

:

in the relationship than the other.

433

:

Mari Wagner: Wow.

434

:

Yeah, that is beautiful.

435

:

And I mean, makes a lot of sense.

436

:

Um, I don't feel like I've ever

thought about, about it that way, but.

437

:

You're right, because especially in our

marriage, like it's all going to flow.

438

:

Our love is going to flow in our

service to our spouse is going to

439

:

flow from that relationship with

Jesus, like Jesus pouring into us, his

440

:

grace into us, his love into us, his

forgiveness into us, his trust into

441

:

us, everything that we don't deserve.

442

:

Right?

443

:

It's

444

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

That's what,

445

:

Mari Wagner: love when we.

446

:

Are united to Christ and

are receiving that from him.

447

:

We're able to then, you know, be

that channel that like allows his

448

:

love to flow through us in trust

and forgiveness to our spouse.

449

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

very true.

450

:

And that's, it's unforgiveness,

451

:

Mari Wagner: Wow.

452

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

blocks that flow.

453

:

And so it's, even though Jesus is

constantly pouring out that mercy

454

:

and forgiveness, the catechism

says that love is indivisible.

455

:

We can't love God.

456

:

And not love the person who's next to us.

457

:

And so if we have unforgiveness

in our hearts toward that person,

458

:

what's happened is the flow of that

love and mercy has been blocked

459

:

by the barrier of unforgiveness

in our hearts and become hardened.

460

:

Mari Wagner: What are some activities

or exercises that you can recommend

461

:

to spouses to deepen their connection

and trust and foster vulnerability?

462

:

I think this is something vulnerability,

especially something I have found

463

:

in working with other couples that

even is hard in marriage, you know,

464

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: It is.

465

:

Mari Wagner: some things even as simple

as, um, praying with each other openly

466

:

can be a challenge because you have to be.

467

:

Vulnerable in what you would say to the

Lord, you know, to say that out loud

468

:

with your spouse, or it can be really

vulnerable to admit the faults you see

469

:

in yourself and share that with somebody.

470

:

Um, yeah.

471

:

Or maybe if there is this disconnect

that they're, that they're feeling,

472

:

but they're not really sure why,

uh, what advice do you have of ways

473

:

that spouses can kind of deepen that

connection and foster vulnerability?

474

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

Yeah, let me just recommend, because

475

:

we're not going to cover all of them,

book Be Devoted, because that's,

476

:

that'll go into a lot of those things.

477

:

But in Be Devoted, and also in the

Unveiled, I talk about five different

478

:

forms of communion building activities.

479

:

And they're kind of in a hierarchy,

in terms of what's foundational,

480

:

and then what builds on that.

481

:

So the first of those, as you're

saying, is praying together.

482

:

And as we all know, it's,

vulnerable to pray together if

483

:

our prayer is really genuine.

484

:

It's if it's coming from the heart.

485

:

And so, in the conference and in the book,

I have people just pray the Our Father

486

:

together but personalize it, you know.

487

:

So you take what's already

common but personalize it.

488

:

Like, uh, Our Father, you know,

we're children before you.

489

:

Hallowed be your name.

490

:

We're praising you together.

491

:

May your kingdom come and your

will be done in our marriage.

492

:

As it is in heaven.

493

:

Give us this day our daily bread.

494

:

We give you all these areas that

we're worried about, that we're

495

:

anxious about, all of our needs,

and we bring those to you together.

496

:

Forgive us our trespasses

as we forgive each other.

497

:

Lead us not into temptation

that would pull us away from

498

:

each other, or away from you.

499

:

And deliver us from any evil that

has taken a hold in our life.

500

:

Can you feel the difference when

we start to pray it that way?

501

:

Mari Wagner: Yeah.

502

:

Yeah.

503

:

There, even just that there is another

layer of intentionality and intimacy that

504

:

comes out because yeah, you're, you're

putting your own life into that prayer.

505

:

That's a really good exercise,

506

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

Yeah, and then just to bless our spouse

507

:

and be thankful, be grateful for the

gifts that we have, and be specific.

508

:

Next one was building emotional

intimacy, which you mentioned before,

509

:

which is being able to share the

joys and the sorrows in my life,

510

:

and to do that we have to feel safe.

511

:

We have to feel emotionally

safe, just like in prayer, but

512

:

even more so, and doing prayer

together helps build that safety.

513

:

So that we can enter into that kind

of vulnerability to, to say, you

514

:

know, this happened to me today, and

515

:

Mari Wagner: right?

516

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: I'm

just really sad about it, uh, or, you

517

:

know, our little one was so cute today,

it just brought me so much joy to

518

:

hear him, you know, just talking about

these new discoveries and seeing that

519

:

bird outside and, you know, just, just

that sharing at that level, you know,

520

:

Uh, brings intimacy and it doesn't

have to be hard sharing, uh, it can

521

:

just be honest sharing for each other.

522

:

And then, um, sometimes then it's,

it's important to get to the more

523

:

difficult issues, right, which is where

we have to really work things out.

524

:

And we call this building teamwork and,

and conflict resolution in the teamwork.

525

:

And that requires letting go of control

and, and a submission and really being

526

:

able to hear each other's interests.

527

:

And then the companionship is

just spending time together.

528

:

That's what builds.

529

:

Connection, if there's not a lot of

resentment there, being together,

530

:

being around each other, working

together, playing together, and

531

:

then our sexual intimacy should

be the fruit of all of that.

532

:

Mari Wagner: Right.

533

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: know,

it, it, is and can be the most intimate

534

:

body, soul, and spirit experience.

535

:

But if we're not connected spiritually

or emotionally, or resolve the

536

:

problems, then there's this

disconnect between our bodies and what

537

:

they're expressing and our hearts.

538

:

And that's a terribly vulnerable thing

to come into a relationship where you

539

:

don't have trust and you don't have

connection to be naked with each other in

540

:

that way, to be vulnerable in that way.

541

:

Mari Wagner: Absolutely.

542

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

All of those require vulnerability,

543

:

but vulnerability requires trust.

544

:

Mari Wagner: Yeah, I remember in the, in

the unveiled retreat, 1 activity that out

545

:

to us, but it seemingly like, was so much

deeper, you know, to everybody around us.

546

:

And we all thought it was

going to be was the eye contact

547

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

Yeah, yeah.

548

:

Mari Wagner: Where we were challenged

to hold eye contact for 2 minutes, um,

549

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

For five minutes.

550

:

For five minutes.

551

:

Mari Wagner: for 505 minutes.

552

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

That's good.

553

:

It felt like two to you.

554

:

Mari Wagner: For

555

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

For some it felt like an hour.

556

:

Mari Wagner: bet.

557

:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

558

:

Well, what's funny, it's we were, we were

like, uh, where we three years, maybe

559

:

two and a half years in the marriage.

560

:

And so we were like, Oh, we don't need

to go, you know, like we're, we're just

561

:

going to be the super lovey couple, you

know, but we've heard of JP two healing.

562

:

And so we're like, okay, like we know

this is gonna be a great retreat.

563

:

We're going to go.

564

:

And when they said this exercise,

I remember being like, Oh, like,

565

:

we're going to be so good at this.

566

:

Like we love, you know, like intimacy

and like, we're just so happy

567

:

and in love, like newly married.

568

:

And, and I cried and I

was like, why am I crying?

569

:

Why am I crying right now?

570

:

You know, but like something stirred

in our hearts, just actually taking

571

:

the time to at each other, undivided

attention, not looking away and

572

:

looking with intentionality and love.

573

:

And just that, I think what we experienced

was just that, like that communication of.

574

:

All my love and attention

is devoted to you right now.

575

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: Yeah,

576

:

Mari Wagner: As a, you know,

my woman's heart was like, wow,

577

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: yeah,

578

:

Mari Wagner: is everything

I've ever wanted.

579

:

And it is, it is a challenging

exercise, but really beautiful.

580

:

And I think honestly, a lot

can be revealed from doing it.

581

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: yes,

and oftentimes couples are giggling

582

:

and nervous at the beginning of that,

and then as they settle into it, as you

583

:

described, it's just such a beautiful

connection and peace that comes, and,

584

:

and, uh, and, and a safety with it, you

know, it's like, oh, you do love me, ah,

585

:

Mari Wagner: Yes.

586

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: we

are connected, and both men and women

587

:

feel that, it's not just the women

who feel that, both, both feel that.

588

:

Mari Wagner: Right, right.

589

:

Well, let's, let's move on to, um, maybe

couples who feel stuck in this process.

590

:

Um, maybe they've tried to kind of

open communication about maybe family

591

:

wounds that are coming in or coming

out in their marriage or, you know,

592

:

they're trying to, to step into

this healing process, but they're,

593

:

they're finding that they're stuck.

594

:

What are some maybe practical ways that

they can take to move towards healing?

595

:

Or maybe to, maybe they're stuck on

not even being able to talk about it.

596

:

Maybe like to move towards communication.

597

:

How can, yeah.

598

:

How can couples move into this?

599

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

You know, there's a lot of different

600

:

reasons why people can be stuck, but

I think the biggest one that I hear

601

:

from people is, you know, my spouse

just isn't willing to address these

602

:

things with me, and what do I do?

603

:

You know, there's a real

helplessness there with that.

604

:

And so the beginning is just acknowledging

that, and again, bringing that to prayer.

605

:

So it's, Everything, because the

sacrament is with Christ and each

606

:

other, he needs to be the central

person in the relationship throughout

607

:

the whole relationship, not just at the

wedding ceremony, which is why prayer

608

:

and worship together is so important.

609

:

And so it's bringing that, bringing

that to him and saying, I'm stuck here.

610

:

I feel helpless.

611

:

I feel hopeless.

612

:

I don't know what to do.

613

:

Sometimes, it's just staying in that, and

staying in the loneliness of that with

614

:

Jesus, so that there's relationship there,

and there's a loneliness in the spouse,

615

:

but you're interceding for your spouse.

616

:

Mari Wagner: Mm hmm.

617

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

Sometimes, it's a recognition that, oh,

618

:

I'm beginning to develop a resentment

here, and I need to forgive, and I

619

:

need to receive forgiveness, and I

need to bring that to confession.

620

:

Sometimes, it's every time I try to

communicate that, my spouse is hearing

621

:

blame rather than hearing my heart.

622

:

So, Jesus, how can I

express What's going on?

623

:

And sometimes it's a recognition

that the spouse just isn't in a

624

:

place where they can deal with

it, which is the most difficult.

625

:

Mari Wagner: Totally.

626

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

And then I think of what St.

627

:

John of the Cross says, where love

is missing, bring love, right?

628

:

It's love and truth that brings

safety, but truth that builds

629

:

up and not tears down, right?

630

:

So how do I speak truth

that builds up in love?

631

:

And sometimes when the truth can't

be received, how do I just love?

632

:

And that's really difficult in marriage.

633

:

You know, when we make our

marriage vows, they're unilateral

634

:

and they're unconditional.

635

:

We promise to love dependent,

irregardless of what our spouse does.

636

:

And so, how do we love

to create the safety?

637

:

And so often times, I'll

give you one example.

638

:

Uh, this is a very small example,

but it, it, it was a Really an

639

:

eye opening experience for me.

640

:

So there was a situation where Margie

and I were in the living room and

641

:

she said something that was hurtful.

642

:

And

643

:

Mari Wagner: hmm.

644

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: I

closed off in hurt and some anger, and

645

:

I began to walk down the hall towards

our bedroom and I started to pray

646

:

and ask God what he wanted me to do.

647

:

And I heard, turn around

and wash your feet.

648

:

And it was like Wash her feet.

649

:

Turn around.

650

:

She just hurt me.

651

:

You know, that felt so

vulnerable and so unfair.

652

:

Mari Wagner: Yeah.

653

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: And I

knew that Margie wouldn't have liked it

654

:

if I got a bucket and washed her feet.

655

:

But I understood that

to mean go serve her.

656

:

Mari Wagner: Serve her.

657

:

Yeah.

658

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

And one of the things that she did

659

:

love, and that's connection with the

feet, is she loved me to rub her feet.

660

:

So I walked, walked back into the room

and by this time my heart had changed

661

:

because I Really heard the Holy Spirit,

and I went from self protection to

662

:

love, and so I went and sat down on

the edge of the couch where she was

663

:

watching TV, and I just started to rub

her feet, and in the middle of that

664

:

she looked up with tears in her eyes,

and she said, why are you doing this?

665

:

I'm the one who hurt you,

666

:

Mari Wagner: Oh.

667

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: and

I said, I just want you to know that

668

:

I love you, and she just melted, and

the whole thing just disappeared.

669

:

It was, it

670

:

Mari Wagner: Absolutely.

671

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: gone.

672

:

So love

673

:

Mari Wagner: Uh.

674

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: is

the greatest power that we have, and

675

:

it's, when we're hurt, We want to be

loved, and it's good to want to be

676

:

loved, but we always need to choose

love no matter what the hurt is.

677

:

Mari Wagner: That is a

very powerful reminder.

678

:

And I think, um, just reminds me of

something that we kind of realized early

679

:

on in our marriage, as things started

to come up, that we were like, wow, our,

680

:

our responsibility is to, to, to be the.

681

:

Face of the father as best as we can to

our spouse, like to, to show the mercy

682

:

and love of the father to our spouse.

683

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: Yes.

684

:

Mari Wagner: And the reality is the

love of the father and the mercy of

685

:

the father, while he is just love

is, we're not just to receive it.

686

:

Right.

687

:

Um, in, in our brokenness and our

sinfulness of turning away from

688

:

the father, like we haven't done

anything to really earn that love.

689

:

It has been him that just gives it

freely and gives us mercy and his love

690

:

freely over and over and over again.

691

:

and we have an opportunity in marriage,

I think, yeah, to kind of like, to

692

:

kind of show that to our spouse.

693

:

so that was really beautiful and powerful.

694

:

Thank you for sharing

695

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: Yeah,

that's, that's such a gift that you start

696

:

your marriage that way because for most

of us, we get into those situations and we

697

:

want to receive the grace but not give it.

698

:

Mari Wagner: Yeah.

699

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: That's

700

:

Mari Wagner: Especially when

you feel like it's unfair, you

701

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: unfair.

702

:

Yeah.

703

:

Mari Wagner: they hurt me.

704

:

I have no

705

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: Yeah.

706

:

Mari Wagner: to be the one to show

this love, but story, it just reminded

707

:

me, we had a similar situation.

708

:

We were in an argument very early

on in our marriage and I was just

709

:

angry and I was walking away and I

felt my heart hardened and I felt.

710

:

The Holy Spirit be like, this

is an opportunity to show the

711

:

love of the father, like to

show the mercy of the father.

712

:

And you don't want that right now.

713

:

This is going to reveal the heart

of the father to your husband, who

714

:

is having a hard time believing

715

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: Yes.

716

:

Mari Wagner: know?

717

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: Yes.

718

:

Mari Wagner: what a gift that we

have, but it really like you, you

719

:

keep bringing it back to prayer.

720

:

And I love that you do, because

that's something I talk about

721

:

so much, um, in, in my ministry

and my content is how important.

722

:

individual prayer lives are as

well as bringing that into our

723

:

marriage and building kind of a

prayer life in our marriage as well.

724

:

Because we're not going to be able to

listen to those promptings of the Holy

725

:

Spirit or be obedient enough to follow

them if we don't, if we're not rooted in

726

:

our prayer and our relationship with God.

727

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: So true.

728

:

Very true.

729

:

Mari Wagner: So what if spouses are in

different places in their healing journey?

730

:

Um, maybe one is like really

ready to dive into it and the

731

:

other one feels more resistant.

732

:

Um, what is the best way

to approach your spouse?

733

:

Do you give them more space

and wait till they're ready?

734

:

Or do you try and encourage them

and say like, no, like I'm ready.

735

:

Like this is super important.

736

:

Let's jump in.

737

:

What is the best route there?

738

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

Yeah, I think it needs to be worked

739

:

out individually with every couple,

because each of those situations

740

:

are different, but just kind of as

principle to go back to the love

741

:

of the Father and who Jesus is.

742

:

You know, Jesus is the ultimate

bridegroom, who never forces

743

:

himself on the bride, right?

744

:

He never forces us.

745

:

into a level of relationship

that we're not ready to go to or

746

:

willing to go to with each other.

747

:

So he can invite us, but not coerce us.

748

:

And so it's to be able to become aware in

ourselves where our inviting is coercive.

749

:

And I can look at lots of situations

in my marriage where I was trying to

750

:

get Margie to be or to do something

that I wanted her to be because I

751

:

needed it, where she wasn't there.

752

:

And those are really frustrating

and lonely places when we're trying

753

:

and it's not being communicated.

754

:

Uh, and I'm sure there are

just as many places on her end.

755

:

In that, uh, it, it comes back

to the basic sense of respect.

756

:

How do I respect the freedom of my spouse?

757

:

Mari Wagner: Yeah.

758

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: I

can, I can offer like with hands open.

759

:

I can offer this desire, but I

can't grasp at and, and pull it from

760

:

them, demand it from them, because

then that becomes disrespectful,

761

:

and it's so hard in a marriage

when we're hurting not to do that,

762

:

Mari Wagner: Yeah.

763

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

but again, it's, it's that trust

764

:

and intercession and continuing to

intercede, and some prayers aren't

765

:

answered for a long, long time.

766

:

Mari Wagner: Hmm.

767

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: God

promises to answer prayers, and while

768

:

he's doing it, he's working on our heart,

and that's what's really important,

769

:

is we can always be in a process of

healing, even if our spouse isn't.

770

:

willing.

771

:

And then the other thing

is love always heals.

772

:

So, when we choose to love, we're always

bringing healing into our marriage.

773

:

Mari Wagner: Yeah, absolutely.

774

:

It's like the simplest

answer, but the hardest,

775

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

It is the hardest,

776

:

Mari Wagner: the hardest

to live out for sure.

777

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: and

778

:

Mari Wagner: Uh, Dr.

779

:

Bob, thank you so much.

780

:

My, my last question would be, what

advice do you have for couples who feel

781

:

like maybe their wounds are too deep?

782

:

To overcome or there has been too

big of a hurt that they can't get

783

:

over, you know, couples that are

kind of in this last resort area

784

:

where they're just like, I don't

know how we're going to move forward.

785

:

What advice would you have or what

would you want to say to them?

786

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

nothing is impossible for God.

787

:

I have, both in marriage counseling

and in our Unveiled conferences,

788

:

I've had couples come who, that's

it, this is, we're getting divorced

789

:

after this, or we've been divorced.

790

:

And what do we do?

791

:

And I've seen God come

through over and over again.

792

:

I've seen situations where they

haven't cooperated with what he's

793

:

doing, and they don't reconcile.

794

:

But I've seen so many situations,

even couples who've been

795

:

divorced for several years.

796

:

Get healed and reconciled.

797

:

So if things are intolerable, sometimes

there needs to be a, excuse me, a

798

:

separation within the home, so that

you're not constantly creating more

799

:

while both of you are getting help,

um, individually, if not together.

800

:

Mari Wagner: Yeah.

801

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: the

home, although I often see couples just

802

:

do that as a preparation for divorce,

and that's, that's not, that's not the

803

:

advice I would give most of the time.

804

:

I think it's best to continue to,

to be present, but if there's really

805

:

damage happening and it's really

abusive, sometimes that's necessary.

806

:

Um, divorce.

807

:

As an ultimate thing, uh, in the

church, if it's a sacrament, we're

808

:

still married, uh, but if it's necessary

to protect the children or protect

809

:

against serious abuse, that can be.

810

:

But if couples just get in a breakdown

and it feels hopeless and they've

811

:

hurt each other, I've seen so much

restoration and redemption in those

812

:

situations when couples are willing.

813

:

Even when one person's willing.

814

:

I'll give you an extreme example, and

this upsets a lot of people because

815

:

it's so extreme, but it's real.

816

:

A woman came to me, her husband had

sexually abused their daughters.

817

:

She had separated from him,

hadn't divorced, and she came

818

:

from help in another city.

819

:

And she got to a place where she

dealt with all of the pain of the

820

:

wounds for her and her daughter.

821

:

I was able finally to forgive her husband,

and then she didn't want her husband to

822

:

go to hell, so she invited her husband

to come and join us in the therapy.

823

:

So I worked with him for a while.

824

:

He had a hard time forgiving himself.

825

:

He hated himself.

826

:

Couldn't bear looking at that.

827

:

Once, it was her mercy and love that

allowed him to enter into the process.

828

:

He was then able to go to confession.

829

:

He was then able to Sit down with his

wife and with the daughters and repair

830

:

the dam do the best he could to repair

the damage with those situations.

831

:

Marriage was reconciled, that

family was reconciled after

832

:

several hard years of working.

833

:

If you ever think of a hopeless

situation, that would be it.

834

:

And so What that taught me is that

there's nothing God can't forgive and

835

:

there's nothing that God can't redeem

if people are willing and sometimes

836

:

It's a lot of struggle to get there

837

:

Mari Wagner: Wow.

838

:

Wow.

839

:

Well, thank you.

840

:

Thank you so much for, for sharing

all this and just all the wisdom.

841

:

And um, you can just tell that you,

you have such a heart for couples

842

:

and marriages and restoring families.

843

:

So it's such a gift what you're doing and

your ministry is blessing so much of us.

844

:

Thank you for coming on here

and spending time with us today.

845

:

I know this conversation is going to

be such a great resource for couples.

846

:

These topics can be sensitive and hard

to bring up and hard to talk about.

847

:

So I know that this is just going to

be a great resource, um, for people

848

:

to strengthen their marriage and

maybe begin their healing journey.

849

:

Um, where can our listeners find more

of you or find your books or your

850

:

retreats and everything in your ministry?

851

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415: on

the John Paul II Healing Center Website

852

:

then also at other other places But

that's one where you can help support

853

:

the ministry while you do that.

854

:

Also have a couple new books coming out

855

:

Three of them actually Now, one of them

will be great for couples, uh, to do as

856

:

a Bible study together or just to read

together and share together, but it's

857

:

called trusting our Father's provision.

858

:

And it's looking at that whole area of

our financial life and our stewardship

859

:

of time, talent, and treasure.

860

:

But how do we come as children of the

Father in trust and see him come through?

861

:

And there's beautiful stories.

862

:

of the way he's done that in

the lives of the saints, in my

863

:

life, in friends lives and stuff.

864

:

Then the other one is a book of prayer,

so it's a book of healing prayers,

865

:

uh, and it can fit in, fit into a

little prayer book or a breviary or,

866

:

uh, anything else, and it's just all

the prayers we use in our ministry,

867

:

uh, just there at your fingertips.

868

:

And then the third one

is, uh, Beloved Son.

869

:

My daughter Carrie, who we mentioned

before, wrote Beloved Daughter,

870

:

which is a beautiful book for parents

and grandparents to read to their

871

:

daughters, younger daughters probably.

872

:

And then this is Beloved Son.

873

:

And so it's looking at our identity

through the eyes of the father and

874

:

blessing our children in that identity,

which is really creating the foundation.

875

:

for that restoration.

876

:

Mari Wagner: Amazing.

877

:

So many great resources.

878

:

We'll make sure to link those all

in the show notes so people can

879

:

find all that, um, your ministry,

your books and everything.

880

:

you so much for your time today, Bob.

881

:

bob-schuchts_1_02-13-2025_140415:

Thank you, Maria.

882

:

Thank you for what you're doing too.

883

:

I just, I feel like we're

partners in the, in the field.

884

:

Mari Wagner: Absolutely.

885

:

Yes.

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About the Podcast

Ever Be
A faith and lifestyle podcast.
The Ever Be Podcast is a faith and lifestyle podcast filled with meaningful conversations and practical tips that will inspire and empower you to live a Christ centered life in today’s modern world. Through her own experience of surrendering completely to God and finding true fullness of life, your host Mari Wagner, has committed to having God’s praise “ever be” on her lips and sharing that message with the world. Listen in for insightful, real life conversations and actionable steps on how to claim the full life God created you for.

With over 100K followers and counting, Instagram content creator and founder of the popular Catholic lifestyle brand, West Coast Catholic, Mari Wagner is showing the world how to live a bold, attractive, and fulfilling Catholic life by being in the world but not of it. On the podcast you’ll get a combination of heartfelt solo episodes with Mari, interviews with exciting guests, and up-close and personal time with both the Wagner’s—Mari and Trey. What more could you ask for?!

Finally! Answers to questions you’ve been asking like:
How do I infuse prayer into my daily life? How do I live out my Catholic faith? What is the best dating and marriage advice? What does a good Catholic marriage look like? How do I grow in homemaking skills and build a domestic church? How do I create a beautiful and welcoming home? What does a healthy and balanced lifestyle look like? Is it possible to find a solid community of like minded women?

Host Mari Wagner covers topics that you actually care about from faith life, to relationships and marriage, to homemaking, to healthy living. Each episode is crafted to resonate with your challenges and aspirations as a modern Christian woman seeking purpose, balance, and joy.

Tune into the Ever Be Podcast for valuable advice, relatable stories, expert insights and just some fun girl chats with someone who really gets you. Hit play to get out of the rut you constantly feel yourself in, and subscribe to join the community and experience the fullness of life Jesus has in store for you.

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